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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Seriously Vel, continuously claiming that I'm an elitist is simply annoying and couldn't be farther from the truth. The worst part about it is that we could be talking about something else. |
what some thing else ??
Oh and agathon-- last I checked Sweden was operating as a social democracy with full freedoms so its nowhere near some of what kid proposes
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I'm about done with them. I always hope that they will give a real argument, but it always ends the same sadly. |
well if you make the same argument, you will get the same rebuttal
I just don't fundamentally see ANY injustice in the concept that people can make different amounts of money even if they all work hard
My wife is a nurse . . . if the daycare worker made the same wage as her, she would not go to work since if money is equal, we would choose to be at home with our child -- so you have less demand for daycare and less supply of nurses. pretty basic stuff really--- the entire daycare industry survives on the idea that people make more money in their jobs than they pay a caregiver. If you narrow that difference too much , people would have less incentive to work
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Couldn't sleep...back up for a quick glass of tea (yeah, like that'll help me sleep...LOL).
Did I ever say you were elitist? Quote me saying that ANYWHERE IN THIS THREAD, will you? I'd love to see.
Can't do it, can you? And you accuse ME of putting words in YOUR mouth? Shame, shame....
You're not elitist. You're....misinformed. Hugely misinformed, it would seem, and doggedly determined to holdl onto those beliefs.
Not much I can do to change your mind on it, really.
If you want to believe that interest rates are satanic, and that the only kind of work that counts is raw physical labor and everything else is just so much fluff....go for it.
Here in the real world, that ain't true, but if that's what you wanna believe...sure.
See...unlike the system you propose, the system I'm cozy with allows for that.
You can think crazy, off the wall things like that and it's okay.
But you can't say the same thing, can you, cos under your system, if I start thinking improper capitalist thoughts....well....I'm a menace, and would need re-education in one of your camps someplace (best case) or just a bullet in the head some evening when no one is around to hear (worst case).
But we're all just one big jolly happy democratic family in red-land, right? (after the mass purgings, which you've already advocated in this very thread).
Demo...what?
And maybe...just MAYBE if Agathon had read some of that before telling me I was wrong, I wouldn't have come down so hard on him too....but nahh. You guys gotta stick together, and I respect that. So I'll keep right on lumping "all ya'll" in the same boat too, cos if it's good for the goose...
-=Vel=-
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I guess you think it would be fair for her to stay home while other people have to work just because she would not be getting paid more than them. And you call that justice? Whatever. |
Whats unfair about it -- I'm in your system-- my wife may choose not to work because the incremental benefit of working is not enough. How is choosing not to work unfair to anyone-- she gives up her state determined fair salary?? BUt lots of people would have to make that choice since basic math shows that you have to make more than the daycare worker for it to make sense to go to work and pay for daycare
Now I'm sure that you would provide free daycare and I would like that except for the cost of all those high paid daycare folks has to come from somewhere. If its free, you would have a lot of people making the decision to join the workforce
Edit and daycares would be swamped by parents that wanted to work there so they could get paid the standard fair wage while still being able to be with their child
But the premise would hold for all work-- I would have no incentive to hire the kid to mow my lawn (something I can as well as him ) since I would have to pay him him the same as I would earn in an hour of widget making or lawyering. Right now it makes sense for me to hire people to do certain things since I gain economic advantage-- I work my 50th or 60th hour of the week and somebody else gets a job
Also I don't think I could afford a burger at a restaurant if they had to charge prices that supported a workforce making 20 bucks an hour 
I can see most low wage industries being killed-- but I guess thats ok since you will have higher paid work that they can do that will magically appear-- Oh but I am forgetting that all the luxury industries will disappear as well-- after all-- who can afford a yatch or a luxury car when we are all making standard income A1?
Last edited by Flubber on 21-08-2004 at 13:51
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Why you guys think it's so unfair to have to work as hard as everyone else is beyond me? . |
I work harder than most-- I want you to butt out and let me to work as hard as I want and let me be compensated for my extra work/
Also there is no standard amount of work done by everyone else. There are diligent folks and lazy folks in most jobs. The diligent folks get raises and promotions while the lazy ones complain about the system.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Our complaint is that we have to work harder than others. We want to make it fair. |
First I dispute that you work harder than me.
Second I doubt your idea of fair is anywhere near mine
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You guys don't care about fair, or you think that the current system is fair. . |
Actually I care very much about fair. I was incensed to see the sexist attitudes that led to women being paid less than men doing similar work. But I do think the current system is fair. I could choose ANY work I wanted where I could find a demand for my skills. I was just like every other person in this regard. Nobody tells anyone what they have to do. if you think my job is so easy, you do it
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
If I say I want to force you to work as much as me then I'm likened to Stalin. |
The name Stalin never was mentioned once by me . . . but if you want to
1. FORCE me to do work a job you determine for a wage you determine and
2. Take any innovations of mine and appropriate them to the state
then you are proposing a totalitarian state
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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Oh and kid
the reason I abhor your proposals are the same reason I hated working I hated working in a union environment and for government-- too rules bound
While in government I worked my ass off through a weekend ( probably put in 16 hours-- for no additional pay of course) to get a project completed. My supervisor ( another lawyer) told me to take off an afternoon or two off. So a few days later I did. next day the human resources drone came by wondering where my form was for my leave the previous day so she could dock it from my annual leave. My boss ended up calling her and telling her I was at a meeting. But he had to circumvent the rules.
Also I routinely worked a couple of extra hours. My boss knew this and routinely praised me for it. But at raise time I got the same 3.26% raise as everyone else did. Within 18 months I was looking for a different job and my efforts started to go down. Being treated like everyone else regardless of your skills and effort was demotivating . .. heck it was depressing.
You see, the central planners can't individualize anything and the result is a sytem that ends up with people doing the minimum. Check it out
Go to a government office anywhere and see how many people are there 10 minutes after quitting time. Then check private industry.Observe the difference
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Kid, Flubber covered my complaints of your system pretty well, but what the heck, I'll chime in too.
1) Stop saying that I'm trying to control you.
You want to tell me where I can and cannot work, how much I get paid, what I can and cannot do with things I invent, and what I can own. But you're not trying to control me? What would you call it? Justice?
2) we should both be required to put in equal amounts of work and recieve equal compensation.
First, your definition of the word "work" is wrong.
Work is not merely physical labor. Work is thinking, designing, creating, analyzing....and a helluva lot more.
I write books. That's work. If you do not believe it, then you have never tried. Try, and you'll quickly change your mind. That's a promise.
But under your system, physicial labor is the only thing that counts. A ditch digger "works more" than a book writer. So he'd have to get compensated more, right?
And how are you gonna compare that, anyway? Caloric burn rate? Do we get paid by the calorie we burn off? If so, sign me up as a People's Sex Worker, please!
I agree...if we're doing the same job, and have the same level of skill AT that job, then the equal work for equal pay mantra works well. The women's movement has used it for years, and I agree with it completely, but that's not what you want.
In your world, its all backwards. The least skilled workers get paid more...why? Because they have to "work harder" to get the same job done.
Why would anybody use a bulldozer to dig a ditch? I can work a LOT harder by using a shovel, or for that matter, a toothpick, so if we're being paid for amount of work put into a project, then hand me that toothpick and get out of my way! Or are you going to send a People's Job Methodology Inspector by to MAKE me use a bulldozer (but, you know, in a non-controlling way).
Our complaint is that we have to work harder than others.
As soon as you begin using a realistic system of the definition of work, we can begin to have serious discussions about this topic. For the moment, your only position is that sweat-labor is work, and the rest is....fluff. At best. And you could not be more incorrect.
As to your having to work harder than me....I doubt that. We can compare notes any time you like, but you'll probably be disappointed.
3) But yeah. Let's say wages are universally set at $15 per hour. Would YOU go out for a People's Happy Meal? It'd be so expensive that if you did, you could MAYBE afford to do it once a month.
4) (posted by Flubber) The name Stalin never was mentioned once by me . . . but if you want to
1. FORCE me to do work a job you determine for a wage you determine and
2. Take any innovations of mine and appropriate them to the state
then you are proposing a totalitarian state
Exactly. Where is the democratic element of this? Please feel free to point it out to me.
5) We want to make it fair.
And who decides what is "fair" - the handful of people (you included) on the central planning committee, who dictate "fairness" from on high, and use "terrible and swift blows" to mete out "justice" against anyone who disagrees? VERY democratic.
Or, is fairness decided by global vote? If so, what happens when the People disagree with the Central Planning Committee about what's fair? Do you cry foul and demand a do-over, or just do some more "terrible and swift blows" on those counter-revolutionaries who are thinking improperly?
There are lots of others, but it's first thing in the morning, and I"m not fully awake yet.
Still, that's a decent start.
-=Vel=-
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21-08-2004 09:35
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