 |
| |
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Well, my inquisitive diplomats let me know that Canton was the only remaining city having walls, and after putting 20 dragoons around the city (I was determined to take at least 1 walled city by force), only 5 were needed to take it.
There were only 4 respawns in my game, and each one was quite easy to reach and kill, since the last 3 were all on the same convenient mini continent just west of the Chinese (not really an island, since there was a connection to the South Pole).
Sorry LaFayette, but this allowed me to finish right at 1000 AD. I think if I had not relied on bribes and if I had had an equal number of respawns, I would have taken at least 20 more turns to finish. I also got quite an accidental advantage when the Japanese destroyed the Germans early on, causing the first respawn. I was also fortunate that none of the AI built the Great Wall.
Looking back, I think I could have improved by building the Lighthouse and more triremes instead of Sun Tzu's. During the game, I was always wishing I could get all of my attackers to their targets much quicker than I actually did. The Lighthouse and more ships would have helped out here. In contrast, all my veteran knights turned into rookie dragoons, which sort of wasted the benefits of Sun Tzu.
Happiness was a problem, but was not unmanageable. I just used a lot of small cities, so it didn't matter if a few became useless. Unit support problems were easily solved once I started capturing AI cities. I could use these cities to support recovering attackers, freeing up shields in my home cities to increase their rates of production.
In sum, I was greatly encouraged with this Invention-Chivalry strategy, since it produces a big army very cheaply and in a more timely fashion than the Monotheism-Crusader system. The amount of research needed is about the same and things are quite manageable without Michaelangelo's. With a good chance of dragoons in time to be of real use, I'd say one's odds are best by doing things this way.
However, I have another new strategy I'd like to try if we play another game after this one. I'd like to see how early a conquest is possible while playing using LaFayette's self-imposed restrictions. Eliminating bribery does make a huge difference in how quickly one can capture well defended AI cities, and I'm still very impressed with LaFayette's great result.
Attached is the save made at 1000 AD. More details later.
 Attachment: ap_a1000.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Log of Conquest Win 1000 AD
Here is the sequence of events. See previous posts for more details and discussion of the game.
3900 Athens, Sparta
3750 Alphabet
3600 hut archer
3550 Code of Laws
3250 Thermopylae
3150 Map Making
2950 Mongols trade for Ceremonial Burial, allows earlier acquisition of Monarchy
2800 Corinth
2650 Monarchy, Mongols trade for Bronze Working, Masonry, hut Pottery
2550 hut nomads
2400 Delphi
2300 Pharsalos
2100 Currency
2050 Knossus, hut Construction
1900 Japanese trade for Horseback Riding, share maps; Mongols give tech, share maps
1800 hut barbs
1600 Trade, Argos
1400 Mycenae
1300 Hanging Gardens, Chinese trade for Writing, share maps, 50g tribute;
Mongols tech, 100g; Japanese tech, maps, 75g
1100 The Wheel
1000 hut elephant
950 Marco Polos Embassy, hut nomads, Germans tech, maps;
Russians trade for Warrior Code, maps, 250g; Japanese tech, maps, 150g
925 Germans destroyed by the Japanese; Spanish tech, maps, 250g
900 Respawn #1 Vikings, Herakleia, hut barbs
875 exploring horseman killed by barbs
825 Ephesos, Chinese tech, maps, 50g
800 hut barbs
775 barbs kill horseman, Literacy
750 barb horseman bribed, 41g; Mongols tech, 100g
725 hut horseman
600 hut 25g
575 Spanish tech, maps 50g; Thessalonia; Vikings tech, maps
550 Russians tech, maps, 100g
475 Rhodes
450 bribe Spanish settler, 252g; Chinese 150g
425 Spanish tech, maps; bribe Mongol archer, 156g
400 sneak attack by Mongols, hut Feudalism, Eretria; Japanese tech, maps, 100g
375 bribe Mongol horseman, 285g, hut Invention
325 dye(d) to Osaka, 24g (trading is a waste of time)
300 Leonardos Workshop, Spanish 125g
275 bribe Mongol chariot, 262g
250 bribe Mongol phalanx, 293g
225 Japanese capture Kiev; Spanish 50g; Mongol archer bribed, 222g
My horsemen around Karakorum were living off these bribes, waiting to become knights.
175 Chinese 150g
125 Chivalry, 44 horsemen upgraded to knights; Karakorum taken, 73g plunder;
Chinese trade for Iron Working;
Vikings, Japanese & Spanish tech, maps;
Russians tech, maps, 50g
100 bribe Mongol phalanx, 46g (cheaper now with capital gone!)
75 Troy
AD years
1 Vikings 50g; Bokhara bribed - 171g
40 Smarakand destroyed, 9g
80 Nishapur bribed, 54g, Mongols destroyed no respawn; Spanish 75g; Japanese tech, maps
100 Japanese 100g; Marathon
120 Sun Tzus Academy, hut Halicarnassus
160 Edo taken, 7g, Mysticism
200 Kyoto taken, 7g, Polytheism
220 Spanish 50g
260 Gunpowder; Chinese, Spanish tech, maps; Vikings 50g
280 Russians war
300 Osaka taken, 11g, Republic; Tsingtao taken, 10g, Banking
320 Berlin bribed, 330g; Russians take Halicarnassus, Gunpowder, oops!
360 Madrid taken, 10g, Mathematics
440 St. Petersburg taken, 45g
460 Seville taken, 11g, Astronomy
480 Moscow destroyed, 15g; 150g from Russians for cease fire
500 As for now 12 cities taken, 14 or more to go, I have 57 knights, 28 musketeers, 9 triremes, and a partially completed road south
520 Kiev taken, 20g; Japanese destroyed
540 Respawn #2 Babylonians; Toledo taken, 15g
580 Leadership, all knights promoted to dragoons
600 Nanking destroyed, 2g;
Cordoba bribed for only 232g after loosing about 7 knights against its walls
Babylonian settler destroyed
620 Respawn #3 Zulus settler at same spot, destroyed immediately;
Valencia taken, 17g; barb leader, 50g
640 Saragossa taken, 8g
660 Salamanca taken, 8g
700 Barcelona bribed, 330g
720 Vikings trade for Bridge Building, Philosophy, maps
760 Shanghai taken, 19g
780 Vikings 100g
800 Smolensk taken, 23g
860 Valladoid taken, 13g; Spanish destroyed;
Trondheim taken, 25g; Vikings destroyed, neither color respawns
900 Minsk taken, Russians destroyed, Canton taken, 36g
920 Respawn #4 Celts, Celts tech, maps;
Beijing taken, 28g
940 Monotheism; Cengdu taken, 12g;
Chinese destroyed, no respawn
1000 Celts destroyed, no respawn, no AI left; conquest win with score of 1838, 238%
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
I consider LaFayette's result, without bribery, to be the better achievement. His experience playing all those scenarios really shows.
My estimate is that for each city that is bribed, at least 3 or 4 turns are saved, since that is about how long it would take to move enough attackers into position to capture bribed cities by force. In my own game I bribed something like 6 to 8 cities. For larger AI cities located away from most of the others, such as Berlin, I'd bet it would take an extra 6 or 7 turns. Add all these delays to my game, and I may be having trouble getting the job done before 1500.
I'd like to see another game without bribery, so as to better compare the effectiveness of our different strategies.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Six Thousand Year Old Man
|
 |
Ad Rock
Aug 2000
time: 00:35
|
|
OK, I'm rusty. 
Situation at 1500:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=6526_greeks1500.jpg
1500: OK, I'm too far behind for an early landing, and trading doesn't seem to pay. Back to a war footing! Mongols offer 400 g for a cease fire - accepted, and peace made. We fully expect to break this treaty in short order.
1540: Form Monarchy
1550: Marco Polo's Embassy in Corinth. Embassies all around, tech gifting and swapping indiscriminately, maps with all. Of note: tribute demanded of Germans, and they cough up 850 g. War provoked with Mongols; walls down in Karakorum, Karakorum captured, 31 g.
1560: Samarkand bribed for 165 g, Mongols eliminated.
1590: Magellan's Expedition in Athens.
1600: Spanish cancel alliance.
1620: 300 g extorted from Japanese for peace.
1630: Spanish declare war; Malaga rebels for 212 g. Spanish pay 150 g for peace.
1640: Russians declare war.
1650: Hangchow subverted from Chinese for 398 g, netting Feudalism.
1670: Edo rebels for 520 g. Russians declare war, again.
1680: Kyoto falls.
1690: Statue of Liberty in Corinth.
1700: Fundamentalism formed.
1710: Tsingtao subverted for 362 g, netting Gunpowder. We note that the Russians are busy learning Metallurgy, which will obsolete their Great Wall.   Osaka revolts for 265 g, Japanese eliminated.
1730: Xinjian revolts for 260 g.
1752: Heidelburg bribed for 420 g.
1754: Cordoba falls.
1756: Shanghai bribed for 826 g.
1764: Madrid with Lighthouse, Oracle and Copernicus captured.
1766: Seville revolts for 366 g. Canton falls.
1770: Valladolid falls, Salamanca rebels for 402 g.
1772: Beijing falls with Great Library and Sun Tzu's War Academy, Chinese eliminated. Barcelona revolts for 260 g, Saragossa revolts for 252 g.
1774: Communism formed (it seems the Russians will never learn Metallurgy!). Granada revolts for 310 g.
1776: Satsuma falls, netting Metallurgy from Russians (which they naturally discovered after my revolt!). Tientsin revolts for 261 g.
1782: Toledo revolts for 480 g.
1786: Chengdu destroyed.
1788: Novgorod captured. Hamburg bribed for 312 g.
1794: Valencia captured.
1796: Berlin and Pyramids fall.
1798: Avila captured, Spanish eliminated.
1800: Leipzig revolts for 455 g. Kagoshima falls.
1804: Konigsberg captured, Germans eliminated.
1808: Sverdlovsk captured.
1814: Tblisi captured.
1824: Yakutsk captured.
1826: Odessa captured.
1830: Vladivostok captured. Smolensk captured. St. Petersburg captured.
1834: Kiev captured.
1838: Vigo destroyed.
1840: Sevastopol captured. Minsk captured.
1842: Moscow and King Richard's Crusade captured. Russians eliminated. Rhodes founded.
Game over! At least I wasn't in the 1 yr/turn phase yet 
Attachment: ap_auto.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Peaster,
That's right, no temples or barrracks. All production went into units and wonders.
Research can be improved by not trading for techs that are not along the desired path. You can also gift techs to the key (purple) civ to help reduce research costs. When the Mongols respawned, research costs will go way up until you can find and gift tech to the new purple civ.
Very early in the game, I place initial cities carefully to maximize trade arrow production, to improve research so as to get to Monarchy and following techs earlier. In my save you'll see how the first few cities are placed to do this. They are also close together to reduce corruption and are all connected very early by roads or rivers so that units can be shifted around quickly and easily to adjust support or enforce happiness.
The main thing slowing down research is when you cross over the 20 tech threshold, when research costs go way up. It's very easy to pick up unneeded techs unless you are focused on sticking to your plan of research. This is why only essential techs are acquired, to make progress towards the desired combination go quicker. I needed 19 techs to get to Invention-Chivalry, so had one to spare, which allowed me to take some risks.
Later in the game, when you start taking AI cities, doing so quickly adds more cities and their beakers to your total keeping research times at around 15 turns per tech. I used a lot of bribing early on to facilitate this.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Stu,
Yes, it's amazing how differently things go using the same start. After a game, I'll often replay it later in order to try out a new idea or two, and will be amazed at how differently things progress and how the AI develop. Their actions and interactions are randomized enough to make every game come out quite different!
This also explains why the preferred respawn area differed in our games. City placements were quite different.
Not a silly question about diplos, who are usually wasted when using their "investigate city" option, but I had spare diplos near each big city near the end when I was feeling obliged to capture remaining cities by force.
I must ask LaFayette whether he uses diplomats to help get military units around enemy unit zones of control, or whether he manages without using this trick, too.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
La Fayette
|
|
albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by solo
I must ask LaFayette whether he uses diplomats to help get military units around enemy unit zones of control, or whether he manages without using this trick, too. |
My diplomats are allowed anything except bribing, but:
1) I didn't build many in this game (and that was probably a mistake, especially in front of Moscow, where I managed to empty the city twice in a row, before losing all my attacking units after Russian counterattack, because I had been just a bit optimistic about the strength of the defenders*).
2) I sometimes make use of bribery close to the end of a long scenario in order to avoid "endgame boredom".
* Nothing more frustrating than looking at an empty city, unable to send even a warrior inside, and knowing that you are going to loose all your valiant attackers next turn 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Stu,
Hmm, let me check this...
Sure enough, the walls are right in front of my nose!
I'm the one looking foolish, since I used to know this long ago! Funny!
Too many EL games I guess, where they were never a consideration. Out of mind, out of sight.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
debeest
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by solo
When the Mongols respawned, research costs will go way up until you can find and gift tech to the new purple civ. |
To be more accurate -- and in this situation it really matters -- research costs go way up when the key civ is wiped out (cause then it has no techs at all) or when it respawns (cause then it has relatively few techs).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
LaFayette,
You have to do this manually. After establishing the address of your game save, use edit to select and copy the url from the address window of your browser. Then return to the other screen and paste this url in the slot for the saved game. After this, submit the game.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
debeest
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bloody Monk
But it happens as Solo specifies as well. Usually, because you have been gifting to them, the Purple Civ will have as many techs as you. When the respawn occurs, they will start with many fewer techs than the previous Purple, so, indeed, you will have an increase in tech costs until you find and re-gift techs to them.
|
BM, that's what I said -- when they're wiped out or when they respawn.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
28-08-2004 20:33
)
|