06-09-2004 23:01									#121
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@La Fayette - Thanks for the encouragement. Dave's GL post and .sav's really made it pretty easy to get the main ideas and follow in his steps. If there are any other newbies out there, I highly recommend these sources. I have tried to download your .sav too, but it stalls, with a message something like "accessing file data" (same thing with Scouse's HOF *sav. I did get his *sav from this thread OK).

	07-09-2004 00:41									#122
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Many thanks !
@ La Fayette - I did a search but found nothing. I 'll forget about scoring, though. I was just curious, because it's part of the tournament.
@ Bloody Monk - Yes, I just found the "hidden special" post in the G.L. This makes sense now.
@ 6000 - That makes sense, too. Clever! The ICS strategy generates a lot of Settlers, so the loss does not seem too great.

	07-09-2004 02:54									#123
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Peaster - pre 1000 even on a replay is outstanding - very well done -- we shall all have to gird up our loins for the next one!!

Stu

	07-09-2004 16:40									#124
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Peaster - your questions were already answered correctly. I'd expect someone with more patience than I have to be able to beat my result, since I lost a pretty fair amount of production to rioting in the late stages of my game (as can be seen in my screen shots).

Scoring is primarily based on happy people. Cranking up luxuries makes a huge difference in score. Like M. La Fayette, I don't worry about score.

ICS is, I think, still the best way to early conquest. The secret to success is focus: follow the path that leads to your goal, and don't allow yourself to be distracted from that path.

Last edited by DaveV on 07-09-2004 at 17:08

	08-09-2004 16:13									#125
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quote: Originally posted by DaveV ICS is, I think, still the best way to early conquest.

I am afraid you are right
... but I would very much enjoy playing the next game with exactly the same rules (no tribute?, no bribe?, no wonder?,...) and do my best.

	08-09-2004 16:21									#126
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Hello.

I've finished my game with a conquest at 900 AD. I will post some logs and what not later today. The original civs were killed off in 840 and it took a couple of turns to get the respawns.

I played with MGE if that makes a difference.

	08-09-2004 23:43									#127
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@makeo

Oldtimers seem not to forget the basic rules

	10-09-2004 14:43									#128
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You are a bloodthirsty lot. Even Solo!

I am giving this a whirl (may not finish in time though) to try to spread civilization to Alpha Centauri, where hopefully bloody monk at least can have the beers cooled ready for my arrival.

I am however, finding it a real struggle as trading is very slack. I would be very interested to see how better players cope. It takes ages for me to get anywhere. The Mongols who are closest have no coastal towns and are Icy so my caravans have to take great risks to earn peanuts. At one point I paid them 450g tribute: I can't believe I did that. My not so-SSC stalled at size 12 for ages until the mid 6th century and I have no money. Further growth of the ssc is about to hit the buffers again as I can't get enough food.

In fact the Spanish are almost as powerful as me and I may not even stay supreme for long.

	10-09-2004 18:28									#129
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Offa,

Not surprising with this map. Profitable trades and an SSC with 4 good trade specials are essential for a successful EL game. All the civs are on the same continent on this map, too, making trade even more pitiful, as you have noticed. Establishing good colonies on some of the islands would be the best you could hope for in this one.

	10-09-2004 19:38									#130
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Thanks Solo, that makes me feel a bit better. You are right of course.

However, how did you know the map would be no good for early landing before playing it? I presume lots of black clicking revealed the single continent, and the absense of a good ssc site became apparent early on.
Or was there something else?

Fortunately (?) I am sufficiently inexperienced at early landing that I don't mind too much about the poor map setup. It is still a fascinating exercise, and anything quicker than 1850 will do for me. It may be a close thing though.

Very impressive early conquests everyone: obviously you are very good at this game. I might like a try at a quick conquest at civ2 sometime, and clearly studying this thread will be a good place to start: Peaster's learning curve is extraordinary. However, for a variety of reasons I think that combat is generally much better in civ3, although this may not be a general view here.

	10-09-2004 20:04									#131
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Offa,

Early on, I could not find a suitable SSC site (with 4 good trade specials), so decided to play it as a conquest game instead. It turned out the map was also a poor one for EL trade.

As mentioned earlier, after so many EL games, I was also ready for a change of pace.

	10-09-2004 22:13									#132
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My "early" landing game is running into the same problems. I'm at 1500 and just learned techs in the range of metallurgy, conscription, corporation. I've finally managed to build some decent-sized cities on the few islands, but having all the civs on the same continent (and mostly pretty inconvenient, at that) has made it really hard for me.

Well, next time I try early landing, I'm bound to get a better date....

Last edited by debeest on 13-09-2004 at 09:05

	11-09-2004 01:02									#133
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I completely agree with Solo. This game is a very difficult setting for an early landing in almost every aspect. On the other hand, any landing with this map is a success. It is good to see, that the interest in Early Landing Games is still there.

A possible strategy on this map might have been to build the SSC on one of the islands. But without blackclicking there was probably no chance to get there in time.

I have just finished my game with a conquest. In my case it wasnīt the missing 4 special site, I was indeed a bit bloodthirsty.

Zenon

	11-09-2004 01:08									#134
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offa,

Don't feel too bad about your game; this is a very poor map for a landing game. It was sheer bull-headedness that got me into this one. All the AI on the same rock with poor growth and development prospects; almost no islands and only one of them easily exploitable for colonies; a difficult map for trading needing more than one long shipchain; excessive need for land clearing for an SSC site with only three (one hidden) specials; make this a difficult game.

Due to poor health I have not played any this week, so I may not finish either. At least the deadline has been extended a week (if I read the newsletter rightly). In my game it is now 820a and I have 6techs + 2trades to go before getting Fusion Power. There was a long string (16) of 1tech per turn, but those days are gone; and with the poor trades available to helpers (in terms of $/beakers), I do not have any hope of quickly accumulating the cash and freights to build the ship until long after research is completed. I will probably roll the dice with a 36yr ship and hope for the best, assuming I can play this out. (It may be easier on me to wait another 60yrs to launch just to have a 15yr ship!!) I am not loking forward to a 36 yr dance with the AI.

Some of the things that might have helped you...
--I built a station city just at the North edge of the (9,17) SSC which with roads and rails made three routes to Karakorum worth 35arrows each after re-forresting the specials.
--Uncovering the hidden special, then irrigating both silks to irrigated grain gave extra food for growth. Adding a granary and food routes from a city with a harbor, got the SSC to size 27.
--I was very lucky early in the game trading techs with the AI, getting many needed techs on a timely basis.
--The Chin were the best trade partners, in terms of payouts and SSC demand.

Worst mistake (so far )
--The Mongs researched Fuedalism for me and then chose Chivalry next. I thought whoopy!! They would start the Tactics run for me while I did other things, and I would keep the 20shield line open longer by not quickly getting Chivalry. But they kept making trades with other AI, delaying discovery of Chivalry. By waiting for Chivalry, I avoided carrying WC and Fued for a long time and that's good. But by the time I got Chivalry and then did the big tech dump on the Mongs, they were 15 techs behind. I had paid a huge penalty (on the tech multiplier) for not dumping earlier and doing Chivalry myself.
--Not so much a mistake as a bad habit...once again, I waited way too long to find and found colonies.

It is fun though!!

Monk

	11-09-2004 01:16									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Zenon I was indeed a bit bloodthirsty. Zenon

...but you forgot to tell us whether you found enough to drink ... and when you finished drinking

(BTW nice to see you back )

	11-09-2004 01:53									#136
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New Apolyton Tounament, 08/2004
Medium Map, Greeks, 460 AD Conquest

I finished my game with a 460 AD conquest. With a good starting position and a lot of tributes the game developed very well. I could start conquest around 400 BC. The conquest proceeded better than planned. A major factor for the early conquest date: I had little problems with respawns. Also the barbarians were kind enough to destroy the blue civ. Here is the log:

BC
4000 Athens
3950 Sparta
3850 Alphabet
3700 hut 25g
3600 Code of Laws
3150 Bronce Working
2950 Thermopylae
2900 Corinth
2700 CB
2300 Monarchy
2250 Monarchy established, Delphi (5th)
2150 Pharsalos (6th)
2000 Germans destroyed by barbarians
1900 Map Making,
1850 Knossos (7th)
1600 Currency, Argos (8th), Mongols: peace, 100g,
1350 French destroyed by barbarians, Japanese: peace, give Map Making, maps, 50g
1300 Mycenae (9th), Heracleia (10th)
1250 Trade, hut: 25g
1050 hut: settler
925 MPE, Chinese: trade for Reading, Pottery, 150g, no respawn for the blue civ
900 hut: none legion
875 Ephesos (11th)
850 Russians: peace, 200g; Spanish: peace, 150g; Literacy, hut 25g;
825 Thessalonika (12th)
800 Hanging Gardens;
750 Mongols: give techs, trade for Mystizism, maps, 150g;
725 Spanish: trade for Polytheism, maps;
675 Philosophy Monotheism; Spanish: trade for Masonry, Warrior Code, Mongols: give tech
650 Rhodes (13th); Russians: 50g; Mongols: give tech; Chinese: give techs, maps, 25g;
625 hut: 50g
600 Eretria (14th)
575 Mongols: give tech; Spanish: 50g
525 Michelangelos; Troy (15th)
500 Pyramids, Barbarians near Argos, Russians, give techs, maps, 50g
450 Mongols: 150g
425 Feudalism, new setting tax 70 science 30
400 Sun Tzu

The 5 wonders I wanted are complete. The generous tributes helped to do this very early. The AI civs are not developed, yet. I decide to launch 3 campaigns within the next turns: one against the Mongols, later going South to the Russians, the second against the Japanese, later going South to the Chinese and the third against the Spanish. They have a city almost at the South pole, obviously from a hut and it will take a long time to get there. I hope to finish the campaigns at about the same time. All cities now produce units. A basic ship chain towards th Mongols is in place. A transcontinental road on the central part of the main continent South of the Greek home towns will be a priority. A trireme is allready exploring to dicover possible respawn areas.

375 war against Spain
350 Valencia captured, Horse Riding
250 Mongols declare war, Bokhara destroyed
225 hut: settler
175 Japanese: 150g, war declared, Osaka destroyed, The Wheel
125 Mongolian phalanx on moutain bribed for 108g, the Mongolian troops on a mountain were a difficult challenge and had blocked my advance for a while
100 Samarkand captured, Kashgar discovered and captured by a brave settler from a nearby trireme
75 Karakorum captured, Marathon (20th), Halicarnassus (21st), build on the Western neighbouring island to restrict respawns and to have troops in place
50 Toledo destroyed

AD
1 hut: Crusader, Russians 200g

1 AD stats: 26 crusaders, 10 triremes, 5 diplomats, 14 Pikemen, 7 Phalanges, 1 Legion, 22 Warriors, 8 Settlers, 21 cities;

40 Tabriz captured, Madrid (Colossus) captured, Construction, Kyoto captured, Japanese destroyed, no respawn, hut: Republic, Chinese: 150g
100 Pergamon (25th), Salamanca bribed, 192 g, 40g plundered,
120 Chivalry, hut: Barbarians,
140 Chinese: war declared, Nanking destroyed, Leipzig (Mongol) captured, Mongols destroyed, no respawn,
180 Sevilla captured,
220 Barbarians near Marathon,
240 Tsingtao captured, Miletos (30st),
260 hut: barbarians, Valladolid destroyed
300 Xinjiang captured,
320 Shanghai captured, hut Engineering,
340 Russians, peace 150g,
360 Peking captured, Great Library, Chinese destroyed, no respawn, Spanish, peace, give techs, maps,
380 Artemisium (34th),
400 Russians: war declared, Moscow captured, Sevastopol bribed for 108g,
It took a long time to reach Moscow. Having only crusaders for attack and with a city wall arround Moscow I waited until I had 8 crusaders there. As it turned out I lost only one and needed only 2 more. The Russians were to busy chasing my evading troops in the North. The Russian empire will now fall within 2 or 3 turns.
420 St. Petersburg captured,
440 Odessa detroyed, Cordoba bribed, Barcelona captured, Spanish detroyed, Aztec respawn: peace give techs, maps, a settler on 7, 71, a Crusader is allready waiting on this continent, Aztecs destroyed, no respawn, Kiew captured, Smolensk captured, Russians destroyed, Celtish respawn: settler on 97, 69, a crusader is allready close, at this stage of the game there are very few places on the map were I could not reach a respawn within 2 or 3 turns
460 Celtish settler meets my crusader and demands tribute, we refuse, we demand tribute, Celts declare war , Berlin (Barbarian) bribed, Celts destroyed, Roman respawn, give techs, maps, almost the same place as the Aztecs, Romans destroyed, no respawn

After a 6 month break from civ 2 this game was fun.

Zenon

The final sav is attached

Attachment: ap_a0460.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	11-09-2004 02:20									#137
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Nicely done, Zenon!

	11-09-2004 13:34									#138
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3 days to go only 6 official results

	11-09-2004 14:09									#139
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG 3 days to go only 6 official results

Reading Zenon, after DaveV, I would say you have got the Quality , if not the Quantity
(and we haven't seen any game sent by MarkG yet, have we ? ).

	11-09-2004 16:07									#140
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zenon hasnt entered an official entry

as for myself i've already said that my first attempt was a failure and will sumbit a second entry after the official end

	11-09-2004 17:34									#141
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG 3 days to go only 6 official results

My effort is not worth uploading

Besides... you got a whole bunch of people discussing Civ2 strategies and comparing approaches, when this forum had been pretty quiet. And incidentally, you got me to play my first full game of Civ2 since late 2003. I'd say this tournament idea was an unqualified success, regardless of how many people upload results.

	11-09-2004 18:43									#142
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I've finished. Spaceship landed in 1797

It was even worse that that really, as I got a little fed up with the trading, and tried a bit of caravan rehoming. This felt pretty cheesy though, and removes some of the subtlety from the game. I can see that it would be very powerful if done well.

My biggest mistake looking back seems to have been made in 4000bc when I built Athens on the start spot, thus blocking the SSC used by Bloody Monk. My SSC had only one special, which was always going to be bad. I had thought I had 2 specials until near the end of the game when I finally had a proper look!

Anyway, well done everyone: there are some superb games here. I particularly admire Bloody Monk's effort though. I never achieved single turn advances and so got really bogged down.

The submission page doesn't seem to work.

	11-09-2004 18:52									#143
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quote: The submission page doesn't seem to work.

more details?

	11-09-2004 19:20									#144
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The link went dead on me. However, it seems OK now and so for what it is worth I have submitted. I hope I haven't done anything which would infringe the rules, which frankly I never found.

MarkG: Thanks for organizing this. It seems to have attracted some brilliant players back into the fray.

BTW, since many of you don't seem to play much civ2 anymore, and also don't appear around the civ3 forums much (at least not at civfanatics), what else do you play. Is there another viable strategy game out there, or are you all playing Doom3?

	11-09-2004 21:37									#145
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Great game, Zenon!

Do you have any earlier saves that you would be willing to post? I am especially interested in the years around 400BC- 1AD, and how you produced so many wonders and units without a huge number of cities.

	12-09-2004 00:19									#146
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Peaster,

From the looks of it, I think Zenon rushed caravans first for wonders, and when they were complete, shifted production to military units. I think the rest of us built many more military units earlier. By completing MC so early, followed by Pyramids for growth and Sun Tzu's for more vets out of the gate, he was able pass our rates of production quickly and conquer the AI cities sooner. A great strategy of prepare first, and then conquer quickly afterwards.

Offa,

You're right! I think MarkG's excellent idea of having a tournament has sparked our interest and acitivity with many playing who have not been around for many moons.

The next game may have some extra rules or limitations, which will be good, but in this one I think any and all exploits were allowable, the choice being left up to individual players. If there are any specific rules, they are usually stated up front when the game is launched.

Other games?

I am trying the Dominions II demo now, which is a very complex and detailed TBS game. While I'm not really into games with as many magic potions and spells as this one has, I am finding it to be a good challenge. However, just when I thought I might be getting the hang of how to play it, the demo suddenly stopped, informing me where I could purchase the complete game!

Doom3? Isn't this some sort of first person shooter video type game designed for kids? High on splashy graphics and effects and quick trigger fingers, but low on strategy?

	12-09-2004 04:07									#147
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG 3 days to go only 6 official results

So, I misread the newsletter, then?? I thought you extended the deadline a week. Was that for non-official enteries only??

Monk

	12-09-2004 14:54									#148
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the extension was for those who would declare in the forums that they were playing the game, and i havent seen any

	12-09-2004 14:57									#149
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette (BTW nice to see you back )

Thanks La Fayette! It is great to be back, too. Real life needed my full attention for a while, but hopefully I can play a bit again the next time.

MarkG, the lifely threads show that this tounament came just at the right time. I am sure that more submissions will come in before the end of the timeline (which is extended, isnīt it?)
I just tried to submit my game and noted, that my hall of fame didnīt show the result of the last game. I tried again - no result, only the score. I then loaded the game in MPGE and got a 1392 score and 180%. But the score shown in 2.42 was different. I then removed the old hall of fame in 2.42, supposing something was wrong with the file and it worked again, showing a score of 1892 and 245%. I tried 2 more games, an ELG, showing equal results and a conquest game, again with better score and percentage in 2.42. Did anyone else test this before? What percentage should I submit? If this is a general problem and not just a problem with my installation we should take all scores and percentages in MPGE.

Peaster, I think Solo is right. Until the last caravans for the wonders were built I produced other units only to prevent unhappiness, a few triremes for transport and exploration and settlers for expansion. I have looked into Solos log. He had a much better start and allready HG and MPE when I was just about to finish my first wonder. The speed in completing my wonders came from exploiting a maximum of tributes once I had build MPE and from focussing on only one task. In stage 2 I could then concentrate on crusaders and phalanges/pikemen. I never built any city improvements. I personally think that working in a build up and a conquest phase and the decision to launch 3 campaigns at the same time was the key for the early conquest. To achieve an early conquest it is good to think from the end of the game. In other words what cities will be the last to reach for your units and in this case, were are units needed to chase respawns. I have attached some savs you wanted.

Thanks for the comments to everyone.

Zenon

	12-09-2004 19:05									#150
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Zenon,

Yes, a trade for Ceremonial Burial saved me a step to Monarchy allowing a fast start. I also traded for Bronze Working and maximized beakers to get Trade much earlier than expected, allowing earlier construction of HG and MPE. After that, I became too ambitious, shooting for Invention-Chivalry. Monotheism & Crusaders are available much earlier, as was proven by DaveV & yourself.