21-08-2004 23:55									#301
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quote: Originally posted by DanS However, it gets really messy when you go outside Massachusetts with regard to this stuff -- a different world politically. Also, the simple fact is that we are at war and we have to ask ourselves whether a public figure born of the anti-war protest movement is the right person to lead the charge.

Well, Kansas and Alabama are different, but on the coasts where a lot of electoral votes and a lot of economic power is located, it isn't playing too badly for Kerry.

And we're "at war" without real defined enemies (a group who has a member associated with a group who has a member associated with whoever we consider a part of al Qaeda, plus whatever Ay-rabs or whoever get pissed off when we decide to invade a particular target), or without a real defined manner of winning the war. I.e. it ain't over until the last raghead stops shooting at or thinking about trying to blow us up.

Bush and the chickenhawk/chickenchoker crowd seem to get off on this kind of thing, but a lot of people are starting to wonder how many chapters are going to be in this "US against the rascally ragheads" saga. So maybe we need to consider who we're charging, where we're charging, and how much Halliburton et al are charging us for this grand production.

	21-08-2004 23:57									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Maybe we could change the tone of this thread by talking about something that is not disputed, i.e., the fact that John Kerry is a war criminal. Should George Bush offer him a pardon like Ford did to Nixon in order to heal old wounds? I think it would be gracious of Bush if he at least made a token offer to pardon Kerry for his war crimes. What does everyone think about my idea?

Sure - maybe a blanket pardon for all Vietnam vets who operated in free fire zones. All two million or so.

	22-08-2004 00:11									#303
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It pertains as to why they thought going on his war record would be a good idea. Frankly, when leading Senate Repugs line up to defend Kerry against these SBV guys, inculding one who headed Nixon's investigation into Kerry, I suspect that they thought it was a good idea because they didn't expect a smeer campaign based on lies.

Che., what you talking about? No one in the Nixon administration "investigated" Kerry. Pat Buchanan, a Nixon speechwriter, was on the Chris Matthews show last night and explained that O'Neill contacted them shortly after Kerry's speech before the Senate in 1971. All the White House did was to arrange for O'Neill to have venues for his debates with Kerry. There was no investigation into Kerry's war record -- at least not by the White House. The debates focused solely on whether our soldiers in Vietnam were committing war crimes.

	22-08-2004 00:14									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che., what you talking about? No one in the Nixon administration "investigated" Kerry. Pat Buchanan, a Nixon speechwriter, was on the Chris Matthews show last night and explained that O'Neill contacted them shortly after Kerry's speech before the Senate in 1971. All the White House did was to arrange for O'Neill to have venues for his debates with Kerry. There was no investigation into Kerry's war record -- at least not by the White House. The debates focused solely on whether our soldiers in Vietnam were committing war crimes.

They had a debate on PBS about Kerry and his anti-war stance- he and his group were debated several times in the Oval Office by Nixon, Kissinger, and Edelman (I think this was the WH Chief of Staff)- we know cause its all on tape. Maybe you should see that documentary sometimes.

	22-08-2004 00:23									#305
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GePap, I don't doubt that they debated the antiwar movement, Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans against the War in the White House. I just do not believe that they conducted an investigation of Kerry's war record. I think they acted on the assumption that Kerry was in fact a decorated war hero who actually earned the metals he bore on his chest.

	22-08-2004 00:27									#306
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Both your presidential candidates are complete losers, I'd call it a day and change countries if I was American.

Um, did you forget about who runs your country?

	22-08-2004 00:28									#307
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quote: Well, Kansas and Alabama are different, but on the coasts where a lot of electoral votes and a lot of economic power is located, it isn't playing too badly for Kerry. And we're "at war" without real defined enemies (a group who has a member associated with a group who has a member associated with whoever we consider a part of al Qaeda, plus whatever Ay-rabs or whoever get pissed off when we decide to invade a particular target), or without a real defined manner of winning the war. I.e. it ain't over until the last raghead stops shooting at or thinking about trying to blow us up. Bush and the chickenhawk/chickenchoker crowd seem to get off on this kind of thing, but a lot of people are starting to wonder how many chapters are going to be in this "US against the rascally ragheads" saga. So maybe we need to consider who we're charging, where we're charging, and how much Halliburton et al are charging us for this grand production.

What's this have to do with perceptions that John Kerry is unfit for command due to his Vietnam war record (during and after)?

	22-08-2004 00:32									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, I don't doubt that they debated the antiwar movement, Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans against the War in the White House. I just do not believe that they conducted an investigation of Kerry's war record. I think they acted on the assumption that Kerry was in fact a decorated war hero who actually earned the metals he bore on his chest.

Why would they? One of the co-leaders of the movement at that very time was found to have lied about his war record- if you think anyone comming to light, specially in such a charged manner would not have plenty of people looking into his background, specially folks at the Nixon WH, then you asre being naive,

	22-08-2004 00:32									#309
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On Scarborough country last night, Gardner, who was on Kerry's swift boat during the famous "sanpan" incident, had with him a copy of the after-action report filed by Kerry. The report calls a dead child a Vietcong K. I. A., and falsely states that Kerry ordered his crew to fire warning shots at the sanpan.

	22-08-2004 00:35									#310
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What's this have to do with perceptions that John Kerry is unfit for command due to his Vietnam war record (during and after)?

Those perceptions are pretty much confined to the hardcore Republicans who disliked Kerry in the first place. Other people who dislike Kerry for being a Massachusetts liberal, or whatever other reasons didn't like him for other reasons, so if this does or doesn't add another reason, it doesn't matter.

In the large electoral states where Kerry was solidly ahead, no real effect either.

As for the rest of it, it's a matter of who or what kind of individual is going to "lead the charge" for our what our glorious little incumbent seems to perceive as a perpetual open-ended war. Perhaps a little clearer definition of who we charge and how and when would be in order...

	22-08-2004 00:36									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On Scarborough country last night, Gardner, who was on Kerry's swift boat during the famous "sanpan" incident, had with him a copy of the after-action report filed by Kerry. The report calls a dead child a Vietcong K. I. A., and falsely states that Kerry ordered his crew to fire warning shots at the sanpan.

And what proof could Gardner give of his claims that that after-actions report was false? Did he have any conflicting papers from that time with him to point to?

	22-08-2004 00:37									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On Scarborough country last night, Gardner, who was on Kerry's swift boat during the famous "sanpan" incident, had with him a copy of the after-action report filed by Kerry. The report calls a dead child a Vietcong K. I. A., and falsely states that Kerry ordered his crew to fire warning shots at the sanpan.

Did the report say "a dead child Vietcong KIA?" and "this report states I ordered the crew to fire warning shots, but I didn't" or does the report simply state events differently from what Gardner now claims happened?

	22-08-2004 00:38									#313
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Maybe Kerry just got the date wrong again...

	22-08-2004 00:40									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Maybe Kerry just got the date wrong again...

Of course. After all, we all know Gardner's memory is infallible, and Kerry just "convinced" the rest of his crew to remember things differently, as Gardner stated.

	22-08-2004 00:43									#315
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quote: Those perceptions are pretty much confined to the hardcore Republicans who disliked Kerry in the first place. Other people who dislike Kerry for being a Massachusetts liberal, or whatever other reasons didn't like him for other reasons, so if this does or doesn't add another reason, it doesn't matter.

Didn't you read the last couple of pages before posting? The polling suggests that the perception is spreading to independents due to a Vietnam veterans group spending less than a half million dollars on ads. That's why Kerry's campaign is now playing catch up.

	22-08-2004 00:48									#316
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Kerry should never have mentioned Vietnam except to say he served and made some mistakes he now regrets like most of people did. Parading his band of brothers and using photos deceptively to show support he doesn't have was a big mistake. I predict this will cost him the election which he otherwise had a chance of winning.

	22-08-2004 00:50									#317
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He should have just let the medals speak for themselves. He could even have played it as a modesty game. Compare Bush on carrier to Kerry the quiet, steadfast warrior.

	22-08-2004 00:54									#318
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He is just a politician. He took his home movies of the war and he damn sure was going to use them for political benefit! Politics is a dirty, filthy game.

	22-08-2004 00:59									#319
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Michael the Great, you make it seem as if Democrats simply do not care whether their president is an honorable person or not. You support him and defend him regardless of the evidence, the facts and the truth simply because he is your man and because more than anything else you want to defeat Bush.

	22-08-2004 01:02									#320
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This election will be decided by the debates and what occurs in september and october, NOT by this "scandal". The repug convention and event in NY will suck the media life away from these bozos, and the president won;t use their stuff in the convention, since that would play into the Kerry attack of these guys being nothing but WH stooges.

These guys have had a small impact solely becuase they capitalized the news cycle for 2 weeks, given the inability of the media to, I don't know, explore policy, check up on Iraq and the war on terrors, talk about domestic policies and other actions that would actually help, not harm, our democracy. This ends next week, as I said, with the repug convention.

If Kerry does very well in the debates, he will equalize or surpass Bush. If the economic number don;t rebound and we fail to see 200,000+ job numbers for August, and Sept., this hurts Bush. If Osama is caught or some other "october surprise:, that helps Bush, so forth and so on.

	22-08-2004 01:04									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Michael the Great, you make it seem as if Democrats simply do not care whether their president is an honorable person or not. You support him and defend him regardless of the evidence, the facts and the truth simply because he is your man and because more than anything else you want to defeat Bush.

Well Ned:

Bush has said personally he has found Kerry war record "honorable" as of yesterday. Is Bush a liar?

Oh, and of course, this admin. is a paragon of honesty- just look at the whjole Medicaid bill accounting "fun" we had. I mean, they only mislead the congress about 100 billion dollars. That was all.....

	22-08-2004 01:22									#322
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GePap, since you do not deny it, it is true. It makes no difference to you whether Kerry is an honorable person -- "anybody but Bush."

	22-08-2004 01:30									#323
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I may not vote this year. Both sides are suing each other now. My main concern at this point is who will be the next king of Thailand. I think that almost anyone involved in politics now has thier hands dirty. There is something wrong with a system where you have to make ourself look as important and impressive as possible. Humility is a forgotten virtue. Maybe we should kill them all and let God sort it out later.

	22-08-2004 01:35									#324
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Did you guys here what happen on the Chris Matthews show on Thursday? He went apoplectic. He refused to let Michelle Malkin answer a question he asked about whether Kerry "intentionally" wounded himself in order to get the purple heart. Every time she began answer his question he would interrupt and repeat it. In a commercial break he ejected her from the program, even though she was there in the first place to talk about her book in a later segment.

Later, he did virtually the same thing to Larry Thurlow, a member of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Conservative talkshows, like Rush Limbaugh's and Laura Ingram's, were flooded with complaints about Chris Matthews and his rude and unbearable treatment of his anti-Kerry guests. If anything goes to show that the Swift boat controversy is causing Kerry severe damage, the Chris Matthews meltdown is a very good example.

	22-08-2004 01:56									#325
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Statement by Navy Veteran Van Odell, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, in Rebuttal to Michael Dobbs, Washington Post, August 19, 2004

A courageous, soft spoken man of the Midwest, Larry Thurlow has a heart bigger than the great plains and a commitment to truth and honesty that is boundless. He is under attack, because John Kerry is feeling the heat of truth at the hands of this honest man and others like him.

The Kerry Campaign is attacking the truthfulness of this man and the Bronze Star he so richly deserves for his actions on March 13, 1969. I was there. I saw what happened.

The mine’s detonation lifted PCF-3 completely out of the water just yards ahead of me. All boats commenced suppression fire in case enemy small arms fire ensued. None did.

All boats came to the aid of PCF-3, except one: John Kerry’s boat. Kerry fled.

Larry Thurlow piloted his boat straight toward the mine-damaged PCF-3 from which thick, black smoke billowed. He jumped aboard and personally led damage control operations that saved the boat and rescue operations that saved the lives of badly wounded men. Larry’s leadership was in the highest traditions of the naval service. His leadership allowed the other men and boats of the mission to exit the river safely.

This “single act of meritorious service” – the chief requirement of the Bronze Star – should be honored, not ridiculed, by the Kerry campaign and its allies in the mainstream media.

To reiterate, only one enemy weapon was deployed that day – the command-detonated submerged mine that disabled PCF-3. Larry Thurlow’s citation contained references to “enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire,” because that was the language chosen by John Kerry who penned the “spot report” on the action that day. There was no “enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire” received that day. John Kerry’s report was fiction – a hoax on the entire chain of command.

Larry Thurlow’s heroism and meritorious service, however, is real. To me Larry is one of the heroes of our country. He is a man who served his country when called and who returned home to be a productive citizen. Larry and men like him are the strong backbone of our society. I am proud to have served with him.

	22-08-2004 02:03									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Michael the Great, you make it seem as if Democrats simply do not care whether their president is an honorable person or not. You support him and defend him regardless of the evidence, the facts and the truth simply because he is your man and because more than anything else you want to defeat Bush.

Right, because Iran Contra and Savings and Loan made Reagan and Bush look so squeaky clean and 'honourable'.


Didn't notice any of those people eulogizing Reagan seeming to be too bothered by 'facts' and 'evidence' and 'truth'- but then even Richard Nixon gets a coating of whitewash after he's dead.

And now you're complaining that a talk show host treats people the same way conservative hosts and shock jocks treat them, and that somehow this is linked with Kerry too?


Time to stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking Ned.

	22-08-2004 02:05									#327
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I know, I know, only saint Kerry really know what happened that day. After all he has nothing to gain by lying and Thurlow has everything to gain.

	22-08-2004 02:14									#328
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Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates-there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy-approximately three months after I left the service-that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

	22-08-2004 02:17									#329
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quote: I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking.

Doesn't read well, does he?

	22-08-2004 02:24									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I know, I know, only saint Kerry really know what happened that day. After all he has nothing to gain by lying and Thurlow has everything to gain.

Does Thurlow have anything to gain?


Does he bear Kerry some animus?

Has his story changed at all?

Does it conflict with other evidence?

Does the Washington Post support Kerry?



Perhaps instead of believing him implicitly, you should ask yourself those questions.