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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
According to the Times, Adm. Hoffmann and others were generally supportive of Kerry until they saw his biography realized just how much he was lying about what happened during his "Tour of Duty." |
And that information came about independently, or based on the statements of Hoffman and his buddies?
In other words, what incentive would they have to say "hey, we've hated this ******* since he became a traitor and shacked up with Hanoi Jane:ATBtm but we haven't said anything about it until now?"
That doesn't sound as credible as "hey, we liked the guy (even though we thought he was really a gutless piece of **** who we now claim we gave bogus meddles to get him out of our command, but yeah, let's ignore the inconsistency of those claims with our saying we liked the guy), and it didn't matter what he did during the war that we now condemn, and it didn't matter what he said as a leader of VVAW, and it has nothing to do with getting vocal three months before an election, but when we read his book and saw what he said about us, enough was enough, so now we're finally telling the truth about the gutless scumbag who we really liked despite the thang with Hanoi Jane, at least until we read his book."
They just don't have a good story for why today's story is so much different from the stories for the last 35 years.
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Lincoln
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Kerry is a typical Democrat. Go to the courts to stifle your opponants. Maybe Edwards can argue the case before the Supreme Court for him. At least now this issue will get the press it deservs. Kerry is digging his own grave just like Gore did. The man is pure scum.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MtG, I don't understand why you are disagreeing with the NYTimes, Kerry's biggest supporter. The Times cited chapter and verse where most of the Swift Vets said very nice things about Kerry, including Hoffman himself, until they got wind of Kerry's book.
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I'm not disagreeing with the times, I'm questioning the credibility of the vets who had nothing but nice things to say, and now Kerry is suddenly the anti-Christ incarnate? If I think someone's an *******, I don't have to wait until he publishes a book before I stop saying what a nice guy I think he is, and start saying what an ******* I think he is.
quote:
As to Nixon's plan, well it was "Vietnamization."
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You mean finally let the ARVN ****ups continue to **** up while 25,000 more of our troops were KIA?
Yeah.  That's why they call Saigon "Ho Chi Minh City" right? If the goal of Nixon's great plan was to have the ARVN fold in two years, we could have just said "**** it, Ho, will you stop shooting at us for 90 days so we can get the hell out of Dodge, and then you can do what you want?" We would have saved four years, and 25,000 American lives and gotten the same net result.
quote:
But it would have worked faster had Kerry (and Jane Fonda and the rest of the pro-commie "anti-war" movement) hadn't encouraged the North to believe that all they had to do is wait and the US would unilaterally withdraw. |
I don't think Ho needed to be convinced in that regard. He'd already figured out the plan with the French after Dien Bien Phu. And Kerry and Hanoi Jane sure as hell can't be blamed for the ineptitude and corruption of the RVN government and ARVN forces.
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Lincoln
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What do you think of Jane Fonda and her ilk, MTG.
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
I don't think he really wants to do that. It opens up the books on MoveOn and other 527s allied with his campaign. |
The FEC filings, by creating "events" to report regularly throughout the proceedings, ensure that the swift boat vets issue will continue to be a part of the campaign. I think this is pretty stupid of Kerry, especially since he's going to lose on the filing.
I hope Bush doesn't succumb to temptation and file a counter-complaint against MoveOn or Michael Moore, for instance. It would just lend more credence to the much more despicable hit pieces done by these folks.
Last edited by DanS on 21-08-2004 at 09:09
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:34
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quote:
Can you provide ANY documentation to show any charge other than the whole Cambodia story which has nothing to do with his medals and the actions in which he gained them, have any corraboration in the records of 30 years ago? |
You expect me to find the documentary evidence, if it exists, from my apartment in Japan? God, you really are a ****ing moron.
I can't go searching for the evidence, obviously. That's why it pisses me off that the investigative journalists in the mainstream media (whose job it is to look into things like this) are ignoring the charges of the Swift Boat Vets because of their partisan support for Kerry. A large group of veterans are making serious charges against a candidate for the presidency of the United States. One of these charges has already been proven accurate through the work of amateur journalists in the blogosphere. A big thumbs-up to the bloggers, but I'd still prefer it if the reporters in the mainstream media would do their ****ing job and actually investigate this issue. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be going away as they wanted, so maybe they'll be forced to actually deal with this issue sometime in the future. Most people aren't partisan morons like you who will accept articles like today's piece in the NYT as responsible journalism, so they're going to have to actually deal with the issue fairly at some point. I hope so, at least...
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You call the NYT piece propagandad- can you disprove any of its statements of fact? |
What is there to disprove in the NYT piece? It's nothing but breathless reporting of extremely tenuous ties between the Bush Administration and a couple of the men who have donated money to the Swifties, coupled with a nearly complete avoidance of the issues the Swifties raise, particularly the Cambodia charge that has already been proven. It's partisan hackwork at its most obvious and not really worth reading, let alone discussing.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You expect me to find the documentary evidence, if it exists, from my apartment in Japan? God, you really are a ****ing moron. |
At least I need not stoop to your level to prove you wrong. Really sad Drake, really sad.
quote:
I can't go searching for the evidence, obviously. That's why it pisses me off that the investigative journalists in the mainstream media (whose job it is to look into things like this) are ignoring the charges of the Swift Boat Vets because of their partisan support for Kerry. A large group of veterans are making serious charges against a candidate for the presidency of the United States. One of these charges has already been proven accurate through the work of amateur journalists in the blogosphere. A big thumbs-up to the bloggers, but I'd still prefer it if the reporters in the mainstream media would do their ****ing job and actually investigate this issue. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be going away as they wanted, so maybe they'll be forced to actually deal with this issue sometime in the future. Most people aren't partisan morons like you who will accept articles like today's piece in the NYT as responsible journalism, so they're going to have to actually deal with the issue fairly at some point. I hope so, at least... |
Maybe you don't get it- but obviously you are a simple person, so lets take it simply, and lets use the NYT piece you criticize to show you why you are wrong.
These vets claims that there was no enemy fire during the missions in which Kerry won medals. This group makes this charge, and provides as proof statements from its members. OK, so how does one investigate that?
Well, a good investigator first gets the stories from everyone: the SBV provide one set of stories- Kerry and his supporters provide another set of statements. But all of these are statements 30 years after the facts, AND contradictory as well (one set says there was no fire, the other that there was). So, given two sets of contardictory statements about events 30 years before, you seek better evidence, specially any evidence contemporanous with the events in question. What we have then are the official navy records, navy logs, incident reports, and all other public records which the papers, including the NYT's, have checked.
And lo and behold- the offical navy records of the time one by one back up Kerry's comments. So, given two sets of contradictory statements, the tie breaker is the more solid evidence from the very period. And that evidence backs Kerry.
So tell us oh Drakie poo, just how are "reponsible investigative reporters" supposed to check? Besides THE OFFICAL NAVY RECORDS, what magical stash of information is there to tap, huh?
Please, so tell.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
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Don't worry Drake, cause your response more than shows your level of debate, and how pathetic it is:
quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
They could try checking Kerry's diaries. Or the diaries/journals of other people involved in the incident. They could also check past statements about the events by Kerry and the Swifties, to see if any of them had changed stories over the years. |
The Swiftboat vets and Kerry all are equally free to provide, or not provide their own personal diaries if any exist. But as a public investigator, the press has no right to any of that, anymore than they have a right to your diary. Interestingly, I don;t remember Democrats demanding Bush turn over his diaries, which would conclusively prove he was on base the whole time, NO? Maybe cause dems. have more common sense?
As for changing stories- well, if you had the brains to read, you would notice that the NYT piece points to several changes of story by the swiftboat vets. Do I know if Kerry has ever changed his statements about that day? No, but then, I have not seen any of the rightwing papers or magazines that you love to post, like the Washington Times or the National Review come up with Kerry changing his story about the events of those days in which he won his medals.
quote:
Of course, the best way would be for them to push for the release of Kerry's military records, just as they did when investigating Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard. |
Oh lord, do you actually read any of the posts made in this thread, or are you just here to talk trash?
Most of John Kerry's record is PUBLIC DOMAIN- hell, even you could get your hands on it if you filed a Freedom of Information act request. And lo and behold, the papers have- hence the multiple references in the NYT piece to Kerry's military records MtG has already, much better than I could, explained in this very thread the difference between the Kerry records that help to answer these claims, and what type of records were needed by Bush to disclose in order to challenge the claims made against him (the Bush payroll recodrs and such were not public domain, but needed authorization)
quote:
Wow, your hardball question sure was easy to answer. It's good to know that my contempt for you and your intellectual prowess is well-founded.  |
There is nothing more pathetic than someone too stubborn, proud, or simply deluded enough not to notice when they have made a total ass of themselves. BUt you are trully exemplary of such a person. Good job
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21-08-2004 02:34
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