20-08-2004 00:55									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I can't be arsed to respond to this. Do a couple stints as an incident responder or better yet an emergency response coordinator and you'll rapidly understand the dangers of micromanagment and the need for respecting the roles of your staff.

Oh bullshit. Nobody is saying he should have micromanaged. He should have asked fricken questions. Are you saying that the president would be micromanaging to know what the nature of the attack is? Are you saying his suboridinates could launch a nuclear strike or ordered civilian aircraft shot down? The administration was the first to admit after the attacks that only the president could have authorised shooting down civilian aircraft.

The last thing we need the president to do is treat his job as if he were just an emergency response coordinator. The man has got to keep informed of the rough general big picture when a high level national crises occurs.

	20-08-2004 01:13									#62
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quote: Are you saying that the president would be micromanaging to know what the nature of the attack is?

May be he did.

quote: Are you saying his suboridinates could launch a nuclear strike or ordered civilian aircraft shot down?

I don't think that's the question, or Ogie's intention of his statement.

quote: The administration was the first to admit after the attacks that only the president could have authorised shooting down civilian aircraft.

Quick, act now!!!

Sorry, but that is tough to do, IMO, even for a president.

There are organizations whose duty it is to protect the safety of the country, and the executive branch is not the first line of this defense. Granted the president could have "over stepped" his authority and done such, but it is standard protocol to say "well, what's the Dept. of Defnese doing about this? Lets find out?" To many cooks and all...

Problem, however, was that they were busy defeding off another plane, one that rammed right into the side of THEIR building...

	20-08-2004 01:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Japher May be he did.

I really hope that you're not subscribing to one of those whacko tinfoil hat theories that the president somehow had advanced warning of the attacks.

	20-08-2004 01:29									#64
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No. I am impling that the president asked enough questions to know the nature of the attack.

"Sir, 3 planes have been hijacked"

Crap! What more does he need to know in order to repond?!

	20-08-2004 01:43									#65
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Or it could have been.

"sir, we have confirmed multiple terrorist attacks, we really should get you to safety"

"No reason to frighten the children. Get me more information while I finish up here, I'll be along in a few minutes"

	20-08-2004 01:48									#66
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quote: Originally posted by rah Or it could have been. "sir, we have confirmed multiple terrorist attacks, we really should get you to safety" "No reason to frighten the children. Get me more information while I finish up here, I'll be along in a few minutes"

The message is reported to have been a whispered "America is under attack". I'll find a link to it to resolve this confusion. Obviously depending on how much content was in the message there might have been no need much immediate feedback from the president. It should be noted however that from the beginning it was made clear from eye witnesses that Bush did not respond at all to the whispered message even before we all learned what the precise wording of that message was.

	20-08-2004 01:50									#67
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Actually the message was, paraphrasing, "A second plane has hit the WTC, America is under attack". Bush was informed a first plane hit beforehand.

And this non-issue raising its head again?

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 20-08-2004 at 02:36

	20-08-2004 02:09									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually the message was, paraphrasing, "A second plane has hit the WTC, America is under attack". Bush was informed a first plane hit. And this non-issue raising its head again?

I found a site which being clearly anti bush in it's bias eases my concerns quite a bit given that it's gives the complete phrase imran gives above.

The presidents actions on 9/11

The link also includes a link to a short video of the infamous classroom scene where we see Bush asking no questions in response to what he has claimed was first he had heard of the attacks.

It also tries to make the case that the president probably knew of the hi-jackings even before entering the classroom. This would mean that Bush lied to the public about the precise timing of when he first learned of the attacks but ironically this actually would improve my estimation of bush's handling of the crises by implying that the infamous classroom scene in which he asks no questions was taking place after the most important questions had already been asked. If this article (with it's many citations of source material) can be trusted (on these facts at least) then I actually feel a lot more confident in the manner in which those attacks were handled than when I was under the impression that he first learned of it in that classroom and said nothing.

	20-08-2004 02:15									#69
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If all the effort and mindpower put into investigating this matter were being used for something worthwhile and perhaps even slightly interesting, we'd all be better off.

	20-08-2004 02:33									#70
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We all know Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks himself, through his numerous connections with the Saudi royal family. He did this out of a desire to increase the price of gasoline that American consumers pay, thus boosting the profits of all American oil conglomerates, which are all allied with Bush and secretly funding the insurgents in Iraq so that oil prices and demand will remain high.

	20-08-2004 02:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually the message was, paraphrasing, "A second plane has hit the WTC, America is under attack". Bush was informed a first plane hit. And this non-issue raising its head again?

Please remember Imran that the one most vocal about this was Kid. Given that it was 7 minutes in the F911 discussions and that the vast majority of posters recognized it was bullshit. Now that it has been inflated to 27 minutes this clearly signals a dereliction of duty.

Kid, wouldn't buy into it then and now that its sooooo much worse feels the need to raise the issue again. Just as back then, it is a non-issue.

	20-08-2004 02:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Please remember Imran that the one most vocal about this was Kid. Given that it was 7 minutes in the F911 discussions and that the vast majority of posters recognized it was bullshit. Now that it has been inflated to 27 minutes this clearly signals a dereliction of duty.

It hasn't been inflated to 27 minutes. You just chose what to believe, because you can't handle the idea of Bush jacking around for 27 minutes instead of 7.

	20-08-2004 02:57									#73
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What happened to the days when the prez had to be ready to blow up Russia in 10 minutes?

	20-08-2004 03:00									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley What happened to the days when the prez had to be ready to blow up Russia in 10 minutes?

The American people have to wait 37 minutes now.

	20-08-2004 03:08									#75
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Back in the 80s, there wouldn't be no American people left to wait after about 20.

	20-08-2004 03:30									#76
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I dislike Bush immensely, but his staff seems capable. I'm thinking...

He's reading the book. An aide storms to his side, and tells him the news. He asks: "Is there anything I can do right now?"
"No, Sir."
"Then I'll finish this first."

(Somehow, I am more able to picture Jed Bartlett on that situation, saying those words.)

W isn't very smart, but he knows, if he should do something, his aides will tell him.

	20-08-2004 04:58									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun I dislike Bush immensely, but his staff seems capable. I'm thinking... He's reading the book. An aide storms to his side, and tells him the news. He asks: "Is there anything I can do right now?" "No, Sir." "Then I'll finish this first." (Somehow, I am more able to picture Jed Bartlett on that situation, saying those words.) W isn't very smart, but he knows, if he should do something, his aides will tell him.

There's leadership for you

No, he didn't ask anyone that though. He just kept reading.

	20-08-2004 05:10									#78
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What was it that Kerry said, concerning his reaction to the news of the attacks?

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

What was that, about a 35 minute period?

	20-08-2004 05:10									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A simple 'excuss me, I have some presidential duty to attend to' would be what I would expect.

What presidential duty?

I would have done the same thing Bush did in Bush's place.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious He didn't know anything except that we were under attack. The problem is that he didn't bother to find anything out. That's the neglegence.

"Attack" is media spin. He didn't know anything except that planes had taken up a habit of crashing into buildings.

There are far better reason to dislike Bush than his 9/11 behaviour.

	20-08-2004 08:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Winston If all the effort and mindpower put into investigating this matter were being used for something worthwhile and perhaps even slightly interesting, we'd all be better off.

I don't recall you saying the same thing when the Republicans were throwing massive amount of resources investigating Clinton's affair.

	20-08-2004 08:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Verto What was it that Kerry said, concerning his reaction to the news of the attacks? "...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..." What was that, about a 35 minute period?

Harry Reid . He's actually a good democrat.

	20-08-2004 08:45									#82
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo "Attack" is media spin. He didn't know anything except that planes had taken up a habit of crashing into buildings.

That's not true. We know exactly what he was told.

	20-08-2004 09:00									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't recall you saying the same thing when the Republicans were throwing massive amount of resources investigating Clinton's affair.

Correct, since that was before you and I had registered here.

But if you must know, yes, I had the same stance on Monicagate - except for the small matter of whether the President was giving false testimony while under oath. That was a cruncher, to me at least.

	20-08-2004 09:06									#84
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What did Guliani do when he was told?

	20-08-2004 09:14									#85
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How I felt about the Lewinsky-affair? I heard he seemed pretty indifferent to it.

Sorry.

	20-08-2004 14:48									#86
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Bottom line:

I think it's a fairly natural assumption that when you here the phrase "America is under attack," the appropriate response is NOT to sit and continue to read "My pet goat."

IMO, what gets people's goat about Moore bringing this BACK to the surface is not that it's a non-issue (because let's face it, the fact that we have a moron for a prez certainly IS an issue), it's the fact that it's so blindingly obvious that it's almost rude to point it out.

Yes.

We have a moron for a president.

As if that wasn't obvious before.

But, the point got driven home beautifully (and captured on film, no less!) when he heard the phrase "America is under attack" and sat there (on camera) for the span of several minutes, looking like he generally does, with that expression that says "I have not the FIRST FREAKING CLUE what the hell to do."

Out of curiosity: Do you suppose Winston Churchill would have continued reading "My pet goat" if one of his advisors interrupted him with "England is under attack"?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 15:10									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Out of curiosity: Do you suppose Winston Churchill would have continued reading "My pet goat" if one of his advisors interrupted him with "England is under attack"?

No, he would have asked for a refill of his scotch and soda.


You would think though, that maybe he would have asked for more details. "What do you mean under attack? How? Where? When?". Its not as though he saw it on a TV screen and knew it was gobsmackingly awful. Or did the aide say "The Twin Towers have been hit by planes."

	20-08-2004 15:37									#88
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I've read enough Churchill to believe that, too!

I'd imagine his response would have been to say something glib and reassurinig (and beautifully quotable) to the press present, excused himself, both to get another drink and to get to a place where information was easier to get to and more relevant than the contents of "My pet goat," and been on the air shortly with a statement for the people he led (even if that statement was little more than, "we're on it, stay tuned for details")

One thing I know for sure. He (Churchill) would NOT have sat idly by, reading a children's book, looking like a little lost six-year-old waiting for someone in the know to take him to the customer service desk to have his mommy paged (or in this case, his daddy) to tell him what to do next.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 16:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "he toppled the Taliban" yeah that Bush...of course NO OTHER administration would've attacked the admitted al-Qaeda harbouring Taliban during American's time of grief and anger. Nope, ONLY 'W' would've had the balls. What decisive action and strategy! Truly a mighty leader worthy to manage hold the reins of the mightiest military. Or something.

Yea, I mean Clinton knew that the guy behind the embassy bombings and the attack on the Cole was living in Afghanistan and training people to do more of the same, and he waltzed right in there and... oh wait, he lobbed a few missles at some tents.

Consider that toppling the Taliban had a lot more to do with diplomacy than military strength, and that Bush got a lot of countries who didn't want us in there previously to allow us to stage from their soil, overfly their territory, overthrow their neighbor (and in the case of Pakistan, their regime). That took some doing, and it was done quickly.

	20-08-2004 18:32									#90
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quote: The administration was the first to admit after the attacks that only the president could have authorised shooting down civilian aircraft.

is there anything the prez can't do?