31-08-2004 01:12									#151
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian This is such a stupid, trivial thing. What he did in the first 7 or 27 minutes doesn't really matter to me. What he did over the course of the next three years DOES. -Arrian

and this is a much more valid criticism.

	31-08-2004 01:21									#152
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

* DinoDoc heaps much scorn on Ogie for raising the annoying dead.

	31-08-2004 01:22									#153
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Are you sure Cheney tried to give orders to shoot down jets? I've been wondering about this but haven't found anything that says one way or the other.

IIRC from watching most of the hearings, the vice-president did give the OK to shoot down the fourth plane. That order did not reach the pilots or their commander in good time (and I dont remember why). Needless to say, there was massive confusion that morning and it wasnt clear whether a fourth plane was even involved. The air force commander of the jets on station above Washington did testify that he would have ordered the shoot down on his authority but that the fourth airliner had not been found on radar (and in fact it had already crashed at that time that the OK came from the vice president).

	31-08-2004 01:26									#154
	Remove this text

* Ogie Oglethorpe ducks said piles of festering scorn and laughs mightily.

	31-08-2004 01:27									#155
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

My recolection is that Dick Cheny ordered Jets Scrambled and ordered them to intercept the 4th plane, aparently their was sutch haste that these planes weren't even armed before taking off and the pilots were planing on simply kamakazying the Jet if it would not respond.

Also I would like to point out that no one even seems to be cognizant of the fact that the president being able to order the US Military to kill American Civilians for some "greater good" even a very clear and present one would infact be a HUGE extention of executive power. Its always the case that people abandon their own morale judgments durring a crisis and defer to some higher athority. Like a ratcheted wrench is the power of the executive, easily advanced when the oportunity presents itself and very hard to reverse once the crisis is over (especialy if they make shure the crisis never ends)

I worry about the slippery slope here, how clear would the danger have to be for it to be acceptable to order inocent civilians killed in order to prevent more people from being killed?, presumably everyone on that plane was doomed anyways so you could have a rather clear conchence for this case but what if thats not the case in the future? Has their been any debate over this? It seems to have been swallowed by the public completly.

Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 31-08-2004 at 01:35

	31-08-2004 01:29									#156
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Said piles of scorn gel into a nightmarish creature and start hunting Ogie

	31-08-2004 01:33									#157
	Suffering from ads?

* Ogie Oglethorpe opens bottle of Drano sure to unclog any nightmarish gel.

	31-08-2004 01:35									#158
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Curses! You've escaped justice! This time...

	31-08-2004 01:35									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

* Kuciwalker grabs popcorn

	31-08-2004 02:00									#160
	Inflate your Upload Space

And Ming starts hunting for spammers... and may not have to look much farther... SO STAY ON TOPIC!

	31-08-2004 02:02									#161
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] My recolection is that Dick Cheny ordered Jets Scrambled and ordered them to intercept the 4th plane, aparently their was sutch haste that these planes weren't even armed before taking off and the pilots were planing on simply kamakazying the Jet if it would not respond.

The first jets scrambled were unarmed but jets were in the air that could/would have shot down the fourth airliner prior to it reaching Washington.

quote: Also I would like to point out that no one even seems to be cognizant of the fact that the president being able to order the US Military to kill American Civilians for some "greater good" even a very clear and present one would infact be a HUGE extention of executive power. I worry about the slippery slope here, how clear would the danger have to be for it to be acceptable to order inocent civilians killed in order to prevent more people from being killed, presumably everyone on that plane was doomed anyways so you could have a rather clear conchence for this case but what if thats not the case in the future?

Its an interesting question. I would put it in the context of combat and yes commanders have the responsibility to make such decisions.

	31-08-2004 02:50									#162
	Tired of ads?

nevermind, just saw the Ming edict.

	31-08-2004 03:15									#164
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So then, why is the 27 minutes such a big deal? ACK!

Well, why are any specifics important?

	31-08-2004 03:21									#165
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH IIRC from watching most of the hearings, the vice-president did give the OK to shoot down the fourth plane.

On what authority did Cheney give that order? Though I might agree with it being correct, the Veep has no place giving commands to the military.

Impaler[WrG], in this case, the authorities weren't ordering the deaths of American citizens, but ordering the shooting down of an enemy weapon.

	31-08-2004 03:26									#166
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara On what authority did Cheney give that order? Though I might agree with it being correct, the Veep has no place giving commands to the military. Impaler[WrG], in this case, the authorities weren't ordering the deaths of American citizens, but ordering the shooting down of an enemy weapon.

Yes Cheney gave the command very early.

It went round and round and round and came back like, "are you sure?"

Once again Cheney said yes. And this time the order was solidified.

That is what the 9-11 commission said.

I think also, it should be noted, who is really in charge of this administration. In fact, Cheney knew to give the order, because he has expoerience in these things, being a former secretary of defense. Bush is but a puppet for Cheney and the PNAC. They make all of the decisions.

	31-08-2004 03:27									#167
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Cheney had no Constitutional authority to do that.

	31-08-2004 03:30									#168
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] My recolection is that Dick Cheny ordered Jets Scrambled and ordered them to intercept the 4th plane, aparently their was sutch haste that these planes weren't even armed before taking off and the pilots were planing on simply kamakazying the Jet if it would not respond. Also I would like to point out that no one even seems to be cognizant of the fact that the president being able to order the US Military to kill American Civilians for some "greater good" even a very clear and present one would infact be a HUGE extention of executive power. Its always the case that people abandon their own morale judgments durring a crisis and defer to some higher athority. Like a ratcheted wrench is the power of the executive, easily advanced when the oportunity presents itself and very hard to reverse once the crisis is over (especialy if they make shure the crisis never ends) I worry about the slippery slope here, how clear would the danger have to be for it to be acceptable to order inocent civilians killed in order to prevent more people from being killed?, presumably everyone on that plane was doomed anyways so you could have a rather clear conchence for this case but what if thats not the case in the future? Has their been any debate over this? It seems to have been swallowed by the public completly.

No. It is exactly the role the presidency is supposed to be for. Not planned invasions of countries... that has enough time to be debated in congress.

The president's number one job is to make the call when needed. That is what an executive does. That is why there is an executive branch. That is why teh framers of the constituion made a job for one man... even at the risk of tyranny.

The VP can legally give the order I am sure... but it just does not have the realistic respect to haev that order carried out. In a situation as such, only one man should, and does have the authority.

I guess posing for pictures is what George thought the best course of action was.

	31-08-2004 03:37									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

To get into hypotheticals, had Bush immediately ordered a scramble, and somehow the next 3 planes were downed, he would have been a disgraced president, probably impeached, and scoffed, laughed and second questioned for 20 years.

Me, being the anti-conventionalist I am, probably would have been praising him.

Either way, nobody would know he saved the twin towers and people inside. But that is not important.... he would haev done the right thing.

Posing for pictures, staying on the PR schedule is a much easier decision......

"What should I do? What should I do? Well, I'll pose for these pictures and let my puppetmasters do all the thinkin', just like I've been doing since I took office."

	31-08-2004 03:37									#170
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cheney had no Constitutional authority to do that.

This is one of the few circumstances when I don't give a **** about whether they have constitutional authority.

	31-08-2004 03:42									#171
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker This is one of the few circumstances when I don't give a **** about whether they have constitutional authority.

Indeed, the time for debate was nil. Inf act, according to the report, it was a big problem, nobody knew which department had command.



Just like trying to take care of a licensing mess once.... passed on to a different department every time. Ahh government workers... is there anything less productive?

	31-08-2004 03:42									#172
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's just a little bit scary the amount of power Cheney apparently has. Not all of us trust him. In fact I bet most people don't. As much as I hate Bush, I would rather have that power vested in someone who was almost democratically elected.

	31-08-2004 06:50									#173
	Inflate your Upload Space

The 9/11 hearings clearly noted that there were severe communication problems between Washington and the president. As I write that, I remembered that the testimony (was it from Condaleza Rice or Rumsfeld) was that the authorization for the shootdown came from the president but was passed through Cheney. In later interviews Cheney stuck by the story that the president gave the order despite the on and off (secure) communications to Florida and AF1. In any case if the president couldnt be reached then the vice-pres has the responsibility to command.

	31-08-2004 07:13									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ming And Ming starts hunting for spammers... and may not have to look much farther... SO STAY ON TOPIC!

I'm assuming by ontopic you mean the nonissue one.

	31-08-2004 09:09									#175
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I'm assuming by ontopic you mean the nonissue one.

what makes this a non issue? To be a non issue wouldn't everyone have to agree about this? Closest I've seen to an explanation as to why this must be considered a non issue are claims that it doesn't matter what a president does in the early hours of a crisis only what they do over the years following the crisis.

The reason this remains an issue is that the administration claims that the first that Bush knew that we were under attack was when someone whispered to him while he was reading a story. If he had whispered back it would be a non issue. If he had already planned for such an attack previously it would be a non issue (the one thing the administration and everybody involved in responding to 9/11 agree upon is that nobody had planned for such an attack previously). However, according the administration the president first learned of this new and unprecedented national crisis while reading a childrens book and he did nothing.

Comparisons have also been made to FDR's inaction following Pearl Harbor as if to suggest that this is a non issue because everybody agrees that FDR was one of greatest presidents. Well number one I think FDR was a crappy president who made plenty of blunders immediately prior to and during ww2 so this comparison doesn't shield Bush at all IMHO. The other thing to note is that FDR already had prepared extensively for the contingency of an attack by the axis powers in general and had even considered the possibility of an attack on our pacific forces at pearl harbor specifically. So I doubt there would have been as many questions he would need to ask. He also probably learned of it after the attack was clearly over. Nonetheless I do not hesitate to condemn FDR along with GWB if he following the attack on pearl harbor did not ask so much as one question after a brief one or two sentences informing him of pearl harbor.

So how is this a non issue?

	31-08-2004 11:18									#176
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Any criticism of Bush is conspriacy theory. even though he is the retarded child of an inbred royal family, born with a silver umbilical cord, and never knowing a day of hard work in his life, he is a wise and great president, Because his last name is (R).

	31-08-2004 11:31									#177
	Suffering from ads?

I think he wasted a lot more than 27 minutes - more like 4 years come November.

	31-08-2004 23:56									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think he wasted a lot more than 27 minutes - more like 4 years come November.

This isn't just that he wasted time. it's that he didn't even try during those early minutes to do anything but waste time. For most of his term I think he was at least trying to get things done. For instance he didn't spend the rest of his term reading childrens books.

	01-09-2004 02:44									#179
	Got spare money?

because he can't read