20-08-2004 19:12									#91
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All this shows is what most of us knew - Bush is not in charge.

Having worked closely with political leaders I find it incredible he just hung around like that.

He had no idea what to do. And some people still think this twirp should be re-elected?

	20-08-2004 19:14									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident he should have gotten back in Air Force One!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's the closest command center the president has. And has all the necessary communications equipment the president needs. And don't tell me it wasn't safe. That was bullshit. They could have moved the plane to another airport then (and have the chopper fly to the new airport) and noone would know which one it was supposed to be in.

And maybe they left him if the fairly secure school until Air Force One was moved, or at least on the move.

Take about, oh, 27 minutes to get that going.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:21									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx But, the point got driven home beautifully (and captured on film, no less!) when he heard the phrase "America is under attack" and sat there (on camera) for the span of several minutes, looking like he generally does, with that expression that says "I have not the FIRST FREAKING CLUE what the hell to do." -=Vel=-

Did you?

I didn't. I wanted to strike out and hurt someone.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:23									#94
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I was watching CNN in the conference room when the 2nd plane hit.

Up until that moment, I was convinced it was just some drunken pilot's error.

Took me about a second and a half to excuse myself and get to a phone and a computer, where I could start assessing.

That's what I did, and I'm not in charge of anything at all.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 19:26									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I was watching CNN in the conference room when the 2nd plane hit. Up until that moment, I was convinced it was just some drunken pilot's error. Took me about a second and a half to excuse myself and get to a phone and a computer, where I could start assessing. That's what I did, and I'm not in charge of anything at all. -=Vel=-

And did your secret service agents want to keep you where you were at? A fairly secure location?

Watching a movie, by some fat guy with an agenda, is not going to give you the whole picture.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:29									#96
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This has been my opinion before the fat guy even started thinking about making the movie.

It has not changed on whit, although I must confess to finding a tremendous amount of amusement IN that movie.

Leaders lead.

That's what they do.

This one didn't. Never has. Always needs someone to hold his hand. That's certainly nothing new, and definitely not some startling revelation post f9/11.

Do you think Churchill would have sat by reading "My Pet Goat," or is it more likely he would have gotten up, excused himself, and gotten on with the business of leading?

I'm guessing the latter, but then, he was a LEADER.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 19:33									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx This has been my opinion before the fat guy even started thinking about making the movie. It has not changed on whit, although I must confess to finding a tremendous amount of amusement IN that movie. Leaders lead. That's what they do. This one didn't. Never has. Always needs someone to hold his hand. That's certainly nothing new, and definitely not some startling revelation post f9/11. Do you think Churchill would have sat by reading "My Pet Goat," or is it more likely he would have gotten up, excused himself, and gotten on with the business of leading? I'm guessing the latter, but then, he was a LEADER. -=Vel=-

I believe if he was attacked out of the blue, like 9/11, he wouldn't have had the perfect quote or anything else.

Churchill WAS a great leader, but he was a leader at war, where attacks on his country were the norm.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:35									#98
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But it wasn't out of the blue...he had the report in hand more than a month earlier, per the ever astute Miss Rice.

A month's warning isn't exactly what I'd call a blindside, you know? That's prolly a lot more warning than Churchill got before the first German bombs started blowing buildings up in London.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 19:37									#99
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I don't care what Bush did those first few minutes. To me its a non-issue. His domestic policies, and his international actions are all I need to condenm his leadership.

	20-08-2004 19:39									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx But it wasn't out of the blue...he had the report in hand more than a month earlier, per the ever astute Miss Rice. A month's warning isn't exactly what I'd call a blindside, you know? That's prolly a lot more warning than Churchill got before the first German bombs started blowing buildings up in London. -=Vel=-

sure it was, did this "report" say that planes were going to crash into the WTC on September 11?

Were these warnings the only warnings that we have ever received?

How many of those have happened?

Even after 9/11?

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:40									#101
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Oh, and if I vote for prez, I'll vote for Kerry.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:40									#102
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The minutes themselves ARE a non-issue, except that it serves to underscore that which is already painfully obvious. The guy's not a leader. He's not too far above vegatative matter, actually.

I've seen "potatoes" with more electro-chemical activity.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 19:42									#103
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Tubes...the point remains. He got information well in advance that there were plans afoot to hijack big airplanes and crash them into buildings.

After the first big airplane DID crash into a building, the sensible thing...the thing that a LEADER woulda done would have been to cancel the photoshoot at the school before he even got there.

He didn't do that, and the world got treated to seven minutes of "Howdy Doody Goes to Washington" on camera.

THAT is the point.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 19:43									#104
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don't care what Bush did those first few minutes. To me its a non-issue. His domestic policies, and his international actions are all I need to condenm his leadership.

I don't need this to condem him either. That doesn't mean that I think it's a non-issue. It's just another issue.

	20-08-2004 19:45									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The minutes themselves ARE a non-issue, except that it serves to underscore that which is already painfully obvious. The guy's not a leader. He's not too far above vegatative matter, actually. I've seen "potatoes" with more electro-chemical activity. -=Vel=-

How can the minutes underscore that?

Times like that the Secret Service takes over, no matter what the prez wants.

It wasn't painfully obvious before the attacks. It's only become obvious after the fact.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 19:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Tubes...the point remains. He got information well in advance that there were plans afoot to hijack big airplanes and crash them into buildings. After the first big airplane DID crash into a building, the sensible thing...the thing that a LEADER woulda done would have been to cancel the photoshoot at the school before he even got there. He didn't do that, and the world got treated to seven minutes of "Howdy Doody Goes to Washington" on camera. THAT is the point. -=Vel=-

So what?

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	20-08-2004 19:59									#107
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So what?

Here's what:

The Commander in Chief of the USofA gets word that "America is under attack."

Said attack occured exactly as had been outlined in a brief he received a month and change earlier.

Appropriate response: Sit and read "My Pet Goat" for the span of several minutes?

Nope, but thanks for playing.

-=Vel=-
(with advance warning of the possibility of such attacks, had ANY thought been given to it at all, a contingency plan could have already been formed, and put into action the moment the attacks occured. Of course, it would have meant cancelling the photo-shoot, but...that's the job, you know?)

	20-08-2004 20:05									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So what? Here's what: The Commander in Chief of the USofA gets word that "America is under attack." Said attack occured exactly as had been outlined in a brief he received a month and change earlier. Appropriate response: Sit and read "My Pet Goat" for the span of several minutes? Nope, but thanks for playing. -=Vel=- (with advance warning of the possibility of such attacks, had ANY thought been given to it at all, a contingency plan could have already been formed, and put into action the moment the attacks occured. Of course, it would have meant cancelling the photo-shoot, but...that's the job, you know?)

"America is under attack" conveys that planes have been flown into buildings and we should activate our contingency plan?

Or does it convey that America is under attack? Possibility that it took seven minutes to get more information?

Possibility that it took 20 minutes to get the contingency plan started?

Possible that it was recommended he stay there and not alarm the kids he was reading the book to?

Your point seems to be that, since there was a threat a month previously, the President shouldn't leave the Oval Office.

ACK!

	20-08-2004 20:15									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Possible that it was recommended he stay there and not alarm the kids he was reading the book to?

Who in their right mind would choose not alarming a few young kids over attending to the largest terrorist assault on America.

	20-08-2004 20:16									#110
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Tubes, you are aware, are you not, that there are methods of leaving a building without sounding a general alarm or starting a panic?

Or, even better, since he already knew the first plane hit before he got there, maybe just not showing at all?

But, let's assume that he thought (as I did) that the first plane was simple pilot error...so on with the photoshoot.

After hearing that a second plane hit the towers and that America is under attack....yeah.

That should be fairly BLINDINGLY obvious that something's going on, and whatever it is, it's probably a bit more important than the contents of "My pet Goat" (however riviting that book might be).

How hard would it have been to politely excuse oneself from the classroom, walk to the car, and get on the horn with your subordinates?

But no.

That's not what we got, cos nobody was there to hand hold the Shrub and walk him through his paces.

You've seen it lots of times before.

When he reads the cue cards like a good little lamb, we get decent (sometimes) action.

When left to his own devices we get:

"Wanted, Dead or Alive"
"Axis of Evil"

or...Howdy Doody.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 20:28									#111
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I'm kind of curious what you people think he should have done. The best I got the last time Kid decided to beat this dead horse is that he should have gone to another place to not be able to do anything. That seems to be the consensus forming again but I want to be sure.

	20-08-2004 20:31									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Tubes, you are aware, are you not, that there are methods of leaving a building without sounding a general alarm or starting a panic? Or, even better, since he already knew the first plane hit before he got there, maybe just not showing at all? But, let's assume that he thought (as I did) that the first plane was simple pilot error...so on with the photoshoot. After hearing that a second plane hit the towers and that America is under attack....yeah. That should be fairly BLINDINGLY obvious that something's going on, and whatever it is, it's probably a bit more important than the contents of "My pet Goat" (however riviting that book might be). How hard would it have been to politely excuse oneself from the classroom, walk to the car, and get on the horn with your subordinates? But no. That's not what we got, cos nobody was there to hand hold the Shrub and walk him through his paces. You've seen it lots of times before. When he reads the cue cards like a good little lamb, we get decent (sometimes) action. When left to his own devices we get: "Wanted, Dead or Alive" "Axis of Evil" or...Howdy Doody. -=Vel=-

Who care if there are ways to leave a building without causing alarm. If the Secret Service wants him to stay, now listen carefully, HE STAYS.

I did not know that the first plane had already hit before he got there.

I do question why he still went, as this is still a national emergency and he did have the advanced notice of a terror attack that described just such a scenario.

However, he wasn't left to his own devices, at that point he was being told what to do.

Which was, probably, stay right there until we it's safe to come get you.

That being the case, am I going to rage at being stuck there, or am I going to occupy my mind with a novel?

ACK!

	20-08-2004 20:31									#113
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Well DD, I agree that in the timeframe we're talking about, there's not a lot that could be put into play, BUT....

Information he could have recieved en route to the limo, and then to AF1....who knows....seven minutes is a long time in a crisis situation.

The main point though, is that the information at his fingertips with a cell phone and a laptop at his fingertips (had he gotten up and left the building) would have been one helluva lot more relevant than the contents of "My Pet Goat" TO the crisis at hand.

On that, we can agree?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 20:33									#114
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Well, given that I have already said I don't give a damn:

He could have gone to confer with his advisors to see what could be done- even if there is nothing they could have done, at least they were discussing their actions.

	20-08-2004 20:33									#115
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If I'm the prez, and I wanna leave...I'm leaving. What? Are they gonna shoot me on camera in front of third graders and a room full of cameramen to stop me?

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 20:35									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If I'm the prez, and I wanna leave...I'm leaving. What? Are they gonna shoot me on camera in front of third graders and a room full of cameramen to stop me? -=Vel=-

Yeah, but are you a puppet doing everything you are told?

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	20-08-2004 20:38									#117
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Nope...but you just brought us full circle.

It's a non-issue in the sense that it underscores that which we already knew.

It's an issue cos the guy is an idiot of the first order.

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 20:40									#118
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We used to live near an Airforce Base. I work near the airport. I was playing with my 10month old son on Sep11th. After the first plane hit, I could tell my son was getting scared. I don't think he understood what was on the TV, but he could see my face. He was starting to cry. I turned him away from the TV and played with him for a while. I was still doing this after the 2nd plane hit.

I imagine if I was running for office, Michael Moore would probably carp about the fact I did not call my co-workers or leave my house and head for the hills.

	20-08-2004 20:43									#119
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Nahhh, I think he'd give you a nod for admirable reactions to the crisis.

It's all scalar, and in your case, you immediately began caring for the needs of the people who look to you to lead and provide direction (in this case, your child)

Would that the Shrub had acted so decisively....

-=Vel=-

	20-08-2004 20:44									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm kind of curious what you people think he should have done. The best I got the last time Kid decided to beat this dead horse is that he should have gone to another place to not be able to do anything. That seems to be the consensus forming again but I want to be sure.

I would have thought he could have at least asked a few questions. What? Where? When? How? Are we expecting more attacks? Are there still hijacked planes in the air? Are we still under attack?

Even accounting for the shock value and difficulty to think straight most people would at least have had a WTF?! reaction in the mind to guide them. He appears he didn't react in anyway.