23-08-2004 22:53									#61
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Ramo, here is one link where the Nation trashed Dole.

http://www.tedellis.net/dole-article.htm

	23-08-2004 22:53									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ned this implies that Bush is doing this to Kerry. Bush has nothing to do with this.

You think it just a coincidence then, that Bush did the exact same thing to McCain in 2000?

	23-08-2004 22:54									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ramo, here is one link where the Nation trashed Dole. http://www.tedellis.net/dole-article.htm

The Nation is not the media. It is a small leftie publication, and a good one.

	23-08-2004 22:56									#64
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Well now that I've made Kerry to look like a war hero in many threads (I think he still is a war hero though), I think I need to be more balanced and say that Ned is correct when he says Bush did make a fighter pilot. Maybe he didn't bomb a lot of people with it, but he could take off and land that sucker. That's an achievement.

	23-08-2004 22:57									#65
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The issue here, Molly, is not Bush's war record, but the FACT that Democrats get a pass from the press but the Republicans get an anal exam. This double standard permits and even encourages outrageous exaggerations by Democrats who know that they are immune from being anally probed.

	23-08-2004 22:59									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor before catering to the actual undecided?

Undecided voter? Next you'll be telling me you believe in the Easter bunny.

	23-08-2004 22:59									#67
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That's only a "fact" in the Nedaverse.

	23-08-2004 23:08									#68
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I have a problem with the word Nedaverse. Nedaverse should properly mean, one who is afraid of Ned, i.e., "he's one of the Nedaverse."

Nediverse should be the proper spelling for being in Ned's private reality.

Ned, did you read The Nation article? Makes a good case for Dole's record being spun up. Anyway, I don't recall a single major news organiztion picking up this story. If the best you can find is The Nation, a mag with a circulation of 125,000 people, I hardly think that qualifies as an anal probe. Also, considering the lack of investigation the media did on Bush (outside The Boston Globe and Salon, you can hardly use the term anal probe there. Hell, every time the mainstream media mentioned the AWOL issue, they only did so in an effort to say it had been disproved (despite the fact that it hasn't).

	23-08-2004 23:11									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's only a "fact" in the Nedaverse.

Ramo, the Nedaverse is relies on provable facts as opposed to Marxist revisionism ala Orwell's 1984.

	23-08-2004 23:13									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have a problem with the word Nedaverse. Nedaverse should properly mean, one who is afraid of Ned, i.e., "he's one of the Nedaverse." Nediverse should be the proper spelling for being in Ned's private reality. Ned, did you read The Nation article? Makes a good case for Dole's record being spun up. Anyway, I don't recall a single major news organiztion picking up this story. If the best you can find is The Nation, a mag with a circulation of 125,000 people, I hardly think that qualifies as an anal probe. Also, considering the lack of investigation the media did on Bush (outside The Boston Globe and Salon, you can hardly use the term anal probe there. Hell, every time the mainstream media mentioned the AWOL issue, they only did so in an effort to say it had been disproved (despite the fact that it hasn't).

Che, dispite believing in Marxism, you at times make sense.

	23-08-2004 23:15									#71
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Did the WSJ pick up the Dole story? Did the NYT pick it up? Did the WP pick it up? Did CNN pick it up? Can you point to a single mainstream press organ that picked it up?

There is a double standard, and it's not in the Democrats' favor.

	23-08-2004 23:16									#72
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Just FYI, Ned:

THIS:

quote: TEF, you are definitely misunderstanding the degree of shock and anger our soldiers had to Kerry's senate testimony, not only at the time but over the years. Trying to parse it carefully now may be pursuasive to younger folk who were not there. But to people who put their lives on the line for a cause, Kerry is traitor. His comrades did support Kerry in the past when he personally was charged with war crimes. But they largely turned on him when they found out just how much he trashed them and glorified himself in his book "Tour of Duty" that was published in January of this year.

DOES NOT EQUAL THIS:

quote: The question is, will the press now start to investigate everyone's claims to be a hero in the future having found that Kerry's claim to be a hero is largely bogus.

Which is what I was replying to. Those veterans, betrayed as they may feel, are biased against Kerry and are, when not outright lying and using what he said out of context, using their own PERSONAL OPINIONS to ruin Kerry. Just because they seek to ruin him does NOT MEAN he isn't a hero.

Maybe you should actually read my response and what I'm saying rather than attack me for not having lived during Vietnam.

	23-08-2004 23:18									#73
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Ramo, on the Dole piece, I don't recall. On Bush, it was the lead story in the NYTimes and other such publications for a very long time. On Kerry, it didn't see the light of day in the mainstream press until Kerry and the NYTimes almost simultaneously (wink wink) came out with their accusation that this was all a Bush smear.

	23-08-2004 23:22									#74
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You don't recall, because it never happened. Your percieved bias is paranoia.

And the Kerry and Shrub situations aren't analagous. One served in Vietnam, the other used his daddy's connections to get out. If you want to make comparisons, do it between Shrub and Gore, or Kerry and Dole.

Incidentally, I've found a chart documenting the connections between the Bush campaign and the SBVT:



http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images...swift_graph.gif

	23-08-2004 23:23									#75
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TEF, I have no intention to attack you, just respond to your arguments.

I agree that the Swiftboat people are trying to harm Kerry, that they are biased against him (but not because they are all Republican hacks) and are in many cases extremely angry with him for one reason or another.

This does not mean that everything they say about what happened are simply "opinions."

	23-08-2004 23:25									#76
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It also doesn't prove, like you said, that Kerry's heroism is bogus.

	23-08-2004 23:27									#77
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Ramo, just because I do not recall does not mean that no one in the press carried the Nation's story. I just do not recall.

The fact that Bush served in the National Guard and that Kerry served in Vietnam does not justify an anal exam by the press of only Bush.

Your chart does show an anal exam -- not of Kerry, but of the Swiftboat people. This is very CONSISTENT with my thesis.

	23-08-2004 23:29									#78
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous It also doesn't prove, like you said, that Kerry's heroism is bogus.

I think that the charges are very serious and have to be refuted point by point by Kerry or people who were there.

Instead, Kerry simply says they are a smear. This is not a pursuasive response.

	23-08-2004 23:31									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The issue here, Molly, is not Bush's war record, but the FACT that Democrats get a pass from the press but the Republicans get an anal exam. This double standard permits and even encourages outrageous exaggerations by Democrats who know that they are immune from being anally probed.

Even Republican media hacks call the 'liberal dominated media' phrase a useful lie.


'' And even William Kristol, without a doubt the most influential Republican/neoconservative publicist in America today, has come clean on this issue.

"I admit it," he told a reporter. "The liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures."

Nevertheless, Kristol apparently feels no compunction about exploiting and reinforcing the ignorant prejudices of his own constituency. In a 2001 pitch to conservative potential subscribers to his Rupert Murdoch-funded magazine, Kristol complained, "The trouble with politics and political coverage today is that there's too much liberal bias.... There's too much tilt toward the left-wing agenda. Too much apology for liberal policy failures. Too much pandering to liberal candidates and causes." ''

Eric Alterman

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%...224&s=alterman2


But I suppose, Ned, the more you say it, the more true you hope it will be.

I wonder how much coverage there was of Savings and Loan, say, versus Monica's blowjob?

Fraud and insolvency and political machinations versus sex in the Oral Office......hmmm, what would sell better in a country where a naked t!t on television causes a huge stir?


Keep me abreast of what you conclude.




(Edit: spelling, smiley)

	23-08-2004 23:39									#80
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Molly, in terms of public interest, sex gets more attention that does accounting fraud -- except in the case of Enron or Halliburton, of course.

Last year and early this year, Michael Moore and others labelled Bush a deserter. The press was all over that story from the point of view that Bush was a AWOL until he proved that he was not.

The press angle on THIS story is that this is a Bush smear.

The consistency of the press is obvious.

	24-08-2004 00:14									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You know, the press has a double standard here. In 1996, members of the press went after Dole's combat record and openly questioned HIS purple hearts.

Really? For about what, five minutes?

And how about the slobber-fest over Ollie North and his decorations? That was at least the same level (actually far more) of promotion of North's war service to create a hero-image than so-called conservatives claim they find disgusting when done by Kerry.

	24-08-2004 00:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Ned, don't feed the troll.

8/10, Ned. You've got almost everyone thinking that you actually believe all that ridiculous crap you write.

	24-08-2004 01:12									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Last year and early this year, Michael Moore and others labelled Bush a deserter. The press was all over that story from the point of view that Bush was a AWOL until he proved that he was not.

The first mention of the AWOL story in the main press was when Peter Jennings asked Gen. Clark in a debate if he disavowed Mike Moore's calling Bush a deserter (not merely AWOL). Clark wouldn't, IIRC, and that's when, after several months of the story circulating, it finally got picked up in the media.

From the beginning, the television news sought to downplay this. Rather then do any serious investigation, as had been done by The Boston Globe, most media simply took every scrap of paper Bush handed out and said, "This proves our president didn't go AWOL," despite huge gaps being in the records and nothing being proved at all.

It went away pretty quickly too. A couple weeks and then it was over when Bush released 400 pages of documents that said what we already knew.

There is a double standard. If it had been Clinton who was accused of deserting, you can bet that Ken Star would have been investigating it and feeding grand jury info to the press.

	24-08-2004 01:24									#84
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quote: Originally posted by debeest 8/10, Ned. You've got almost everyone thinking that you actually believe all that ridiculous crap you write.

Naaah, Ned was obvious long ago, and he even admitted it. It's just entertaining to counter-troll in kind.

I'll be too busy to counter-troll for the next week though, so I won't be back online until Wednesday next week. Maybe there will be version four or five of these threads to troll with then.

	24-08-2004 01:45									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It went away pretty quickly too.

Hmmm... I guess some people around here haven't gotten the message yet, since it still gets repeated over and over again

	24-08-2004 02:35									#86
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Not only here, but it is standard talking point of the Democrat campaign today. On Crossfire just now, the Democrat representative refused to answer any question about Kerry or whether the Swiftvets had any First Amendment rights, but simply referred to Bush and National Guard, etc.

	24-08-2004 02:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... I guess some people around here haven't gotten the message yet, since it still gets repeated over and over again

Are we the media?

	24-08-2004 02:40									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On Crossfire just now, the Democrat representative refused to answer any question about Kerry or whether the Swiftvets had any First Amendment rights, but simply referred to Bush and National Guard, etc.

This is probably hwo they should have handled it from the begining. Kerry's wisdom in this campaign has been to turn every criticisim of himself back on Bush and the Republicans, and it worked. The one time he stops using this method, it blows up in his face.

The rule of politics is not to deal with smears directly. If you try to clean up a smear, you still get dirty. Better to duck and let it pass by.

	24-08-2004 02:42									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Undecided voter? Next you'll be telling me you believe in the Easter bunny.

Don't they represent about 50% of your population?

Heck, seeing the campaign, I now understand why so many people don't bother to vote in your country: The only reason to pick one clown over the other is because of a party identification, that is arbitrary and often doesn't correspond to your own ideas. Those devoid of party identification have no incitement to vote.

Heck, had Chegitz not seen the light years ago, by understanding the Reps were completely opposed to what he stands for, he would be praising Bush right now (while standing for the exact same principles).

In Europe, absurd and arbitrary support can be seen for football teams. It leaves room for somehow interesting politics.

	24-08-2004 03:00									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Don't they represent about 50% of your population?

No. You're confusing the non-voter with the undecided one. I will say though you're making me want to see if I can dig up the college paper I did on this subject (party systems and the strength or weakness of democracy).