24-08-2004 17:36									#31
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[Outside observation]

I cannot understand why Kerry get's so much flak for dissing the Vietnam war.

All those in favour of pointless aggression and war... vote Republican!

[/Outside observation]

	24-08-2004 17:39									#32
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The Repubs have only The latest Iraq war in their collumn of pointless wars.

The Dems have Korea and Vietnam to their credit.

	24-08-2004 17:39									#33
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Unfortunetly for your logic, Democrats presided over the Vietnam war, and the Republicans got us out.

	24-08-2004 17:41									#34
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Beat you to the punch P.

	24-08-2004 17:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Perhaps in France you know all the political figures in your government, but here a citizen of CA could care less about an Mass Senator. Probobly didn't even know he was in politics untill be became national a year ago. I. E. no need to point put the failings of a non entity. And did the fighter pilot or swifties pay for these adds? They simply told the right people the stories, and of course it would the anti-Kerry team, and someone sponsored them.

Well indeed. There are people who have a bias against Kerry (just like the vets on the other side have a bias for Kerry), and they can be useful in the political campaign. Hence the political campaign uses them. That there are ads, that such financial and mediatic means are used, is a campaign move.

quote: If this confounds you, well you are a communist so open politics would.

Thanks for the stupid BAM, which I find highly insulting. Besides, unless you experienced running for office yourself, I think I know more about open politics than you.

quote: And Kerry revolved his own campaign around his military record, which is FALSE. Talk about party idenfication, you are the poster child.

Were I an American, I'd probably vote Nader. I don't see where you see me supporting Kerry. I just attacked a statement of yours that I considered to be idiotic and blind. I would have attacked Sava just the same if he pretended F911 wasn't a campaign trick (granted, with probably nicer words)
I admit I consider Kerry to be the lesser of two evils, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm believing him on his military record. I don't remember having defended Kerry's record or "consistency", and for a reason: I couldn't care less. However, it is true that I attacked the rabid behaviour of the Republicans who'd swallow everything that came from their side.

quote: Thats a good one Spiffor, that claim from Kerry doesn't even warrent the dignity of a respose. Kerry himself has bent over backwards to erase the memory of his claims of "war criminals" from the public eye. NOBODY, except maybe disgruntled Apolytoner's (which the best indication of nobody in the real world) considisders Vietnam Vets war criminals. Classic Spiffor, Classic.

Rationalizations, rationalizations...
Since the American crimes in Vietnam disgusted a whole generation of Americans, and put an end to all out American wars for about 25 years, I would be surprised that everybody in your country has now forgotten or disregarded them. Kerry's allegations of war crimes may be less PC now than then, but I would really be surprised if all Vietnam vets are now considered to be heroes.

	24-08-2004 17:45									#36
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This smear campaign, organized by the Bush Administration (Carl Rove by name) is far worse than the one which lost the election for Gore in 2000.

Does anyone remember when Gore was vilified for claiming credit for the internet? The truth is that Gore was instrumental in procuring funding to help transform arpanet into what is now the internet.

This is the same republican formula for winning elections since the 1960's. They claim their opponet is weak on defense, smear whatever accomplishments he may have call him 'wishy-wasy' 'flip-flopper' and make it seem that their opponet couldn't make a decision to save his ass and then wrap themselves up in their red-white-and blue flag and sing 'God Bless America' until the election is over. All the time ****ing up the economy, throwing our international relations into the crapper and letting our educational system fall to third world status. Not to mention funding the nation on the backs of our children instead of actually asking the american people (particularly the wealthiest 1%) to fund the government to the levels actually necessary.

	24-08-2004 17:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Spiffor, I didn't say Bush didn't pay for the adds, but that the vets volunteered their stories to his campaign of their own accord. You take a lot of liberties when you get excited.

Ah ok. I understood "unsolicited" as if you considered the whole ads were from some grassroot movement, and weren't instrumentalized.

If you simply think that these people are sincere* in what they say, rather than bribed into saying that, well, this is most likely indeed (same with Vets for Kerry btw)



*"sinciere" not as "telling the truth", but as "telling that part of the truth that is in agreement with their own beliefs about Kerry, and which is useable for the political spin of their side".

	24-08-2004 17:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What about Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore. It's a full length movie timed to hurt Bush's re-election chances... Isn't that worse than just an Ad? And while they didn't fund the movie, they did feature Moore at their Convention... So if you are going to whine about the ads... at least whine at both sides

Absolutely, the entire campaign from both sides is obscene.

	24-08-2004 17:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Unfortunetly for your logic, Democrats presided over the Vietnam war, and the Republicans got us out.

Yes, but the current Democrat candidate has a track record of being opposed to pointless violence.

Unlike the Republican contender...

I'm guessing that Americans don't care too much for individual track records over party track records... or maybe that's a bit too simplistic.

	24-08-2004 17:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber All the time ****ing up the economy, throwing our international relations into the crapper and letting our educational system fall to third world status

Don't we have a generalization here? Reagan significantly boosted your economy, and Bush Sr. was an excellent diplomat.

I didn't follow enough American campaigns to know if the tactics are the same since the 60's (actually, I thought the smear fashion really begun with the Lewinsky affair). I had the impression the Bush admin introduced a very different tone compared to before, only similar to Reaganite or MacCarthyite periods.

	24-08-2004 17:57									#41
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quote: Since the American crimes in Vietnam disgusted a whole generation of Americans

Of whom almost all of which are middle class stock brokers or lawyers or other yuppies, who rightly look back at their youthful activities with humor or disgust. It is fun to hang out, feel important, smoke dope and stick it to the man. Untill of course you become the man.

Is that your soul defense of the point, that a group of college drunks agreed with you at one time, long long ago?

	24-08-2004 18:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Yes, but the current Democrat candidate has a track record of being opposed to pointless violence.

He has since come out to say that he would have engaged in war against Sadaam even knowing what he knows today. (at least that is his latest story)

This means for all intents and purposes they share teh same vision wrt Iraq. The only difference being in the implementation. Which is still a significant point although truth be told I really can't definitively describe significant difference there as well.

	24-08-2004 18:13									#43
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Yes, so what?

One contender stood up and was counted as against the war.

The other stuck his head in the sand and did not serve in any capacity except feathering his own nest.

No contest. One of them has a set of testicles, the other has a calculator and portfolio where his soul should be.

	24-08-2004 18:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Is that your soul defense of the point, that a group of college drunks agreed with you at one time, long long ago?

My job with you is done. Thanks for your cooperation

	24-08-2004 18:18									#45
	Suffering from ads?

What a pathetic ad. Ohhh, you felt bad about protesters-well, why the **** should I care?

The thing is, this ad much better exemplifies the reason for this campaign- men stuck in 1971 reliving their nightmares, but more importantly, thinking that their sacrifice somehow had to be lauded by the people. It didn't.

I generally do feel sad for these guys-thinking that the validation for their sufferings had to come from strangers and outsiders. Why? The people owed them respect, but thats it They did not owe them anything else. To think people should not have stated the truth as they saw it becuase men were being held prisoners of war is absurd beyond belief- it is a perversion of democracy, which is the ability to change policy even in the worse of times-perhaps specially there.

John Kerry did the right thing by speaking out against a war he saw as damaging to the US. Too bad these men thought wrongly he owed them anything more than respect. Hopefully they can get over their hangup some day, because if they don;t, they will die embittered men.

	24-08-2004 18:19									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Yes, so what? One contender stood up and was counted as against the war. The other stuck his head in the sand and did not serve in any capacity except feathering his own nest. No contest. One of them has a set of testicles, the other has a calculator and portfolio where his soul should be.

He was on record in both votes and speeches pre invasion as being strongly in support of the war. Only after Dean made in-roads did he backpedal as he saw a vulnerability.

The only candidates who could legitamitely be described as anti-war were Kucinich, Dean, and Nader. Certainly not Kerry much as his fringe left base would like to imagine (and be sorely dissapointed in).

What makes the situtation worse is he didn't have the cahoneys to defend his earlier positions but instead nuanced.

	24-08-2004 18:20									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe He has since come out to say that he would have engaged in war against Sadaam even knowing what he knows today. (at least that is his latest story) This means for all intents and purposes they share teh same vision wrt Iraq. The only difference being in the implementation. Which is still a significant point although truth be told I really can't definitively describe significant difference there as well.

That "only difference" is the one difference that counts. hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqios are dead due to the incompetence of this admin. in running the campaign post the fall of Baghdad. That is reason alone to kick out Bush and his whole rotten team- without even going into the massive domestic shennanigans.

	24-08-2004 18:22									#48
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Yes, but I don't see a contradiction here.

Being in favour of invading Iraq and changing your mind about Vietnam after serving there... what's the problem?

I think I'll leave it there. The more I get told about this election the less I understand it.

	24-08-2004 18:25									#49
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I have said that I respect Kerry for going to war to fight and perhaps die to defend his ideals.

That having been said a man is the sum of his entire life, he can make up for wrongs and he can compound them. And some just damn him. Writing false citations is not unique to him, but it is a hit. Coming back from the war and saying those outragious, false, and well stupid things is unforgivable. ESPECSIALLY if you try and use your status as self declared "war criminal" as a bonus later in life. Sorry Cruddy, Kerry's net war veteran worth is in the negatives all considered.

Bush, well, I don't give him any points for his national guard service. Not because I have anything against the NG, but because I admit that it was shaddy. But it isn't like he ran to Canada and then talked **** behind our backs like some other president we know. Nor did any of Bush's wartime actions hurt America or give him traitor stauts. Kerry will never live down his shame, at least to military voters and their families, which is a significant voting power.

	24-08-2004 18:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What about Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore. It's a full length movie timed to hurt Bush's re-election chances... Isn't that worse than just an Ad? And while they didn't fund the movie, they did feature Moore at their Convention... So if you are going to whine about the ads... at least whine at both sides

No, it isn't, because people have to pay to see it, as opposed to having it hoisted upon them like and ad. And so the democrats had Moore come to their convention- wow, what a shocker, an anti-Bush celeb! Why, how dare the democracts do that! I mean, I am sure the repugs will have NO celebrities at their convention!!!



Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

	24-08-2004 18:30									#51
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quote: hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqios are dead

Since when did you give a damn about that, less of us to vote against your idiocies.

Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

	24-08-2004 18:31									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What a pathetic ad. Ohhh, you felt bad about protesters-well, why the **** should I care? The thing is, this ad much better exemplifies the reason for this campaign- men stuck in 1971 reliving their nightmares, but more importantly, thinking that their sacrifice somehow had to be lauded by the people. It didn't. I generally do feel sad for these guys-thinking that the validation for their sufferings had to come from strangers and outsiders. Why? The people owed them respect, but thats it They did not owe them anything else. To think people should not have stated the truth as they saw it becuase men were being held prisoners of war is absurd beyond belief- it is a perversion of democracy, which is the ability to change policy even in the worse of times-perhaps specially there. John Kerry did the right thing by speaking out against a war he saw as damaging to the US. Too bad these men thought wrongly he owed them anything more than respect. Hopefully they can get over their hangup some day, because if they don;t, they will die embittered men.

If anyone has a gripe it is the POW's (Which makes McCain's friendship with Kerry all teh more puzzling). Like it or not it is not public apporval the POWS were craving, but freedom. Given the thought process that in the military "We leave no man behind" the acts he engaged were designed to exit the war ASAP and be damned with the POW's. Thus a direct betrayal of the POWs. (I heard you argue that Nixon had no strategy, but buy 71 it surely had become) Nixons strategy was an exit with honor one which meant he needed to get the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table which they were unwilling to do in light of their impression of the US homefront. Acts such as Kerry's IMO undermined that effort and therefor casued needless death and suffering. If you recall correctly, the biggest bone of contention in the talks was release of the POW's as the North Vietnamese had branded them war criminals not POWS.

If you don't think that bears holding a grudge for 33 years your sorely mistaken.

	24-08-2004 18:32									#53
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quote: Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

No, that is you seeing your positioned owned, and whining about it.

	24-08-2004 18:33									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I have said that I respect Kerry for going to war to fight and perhaps die to defend his ideals. That having been said a man is the sum of his entire life, he can make up for wrongs and he can compound them. And some just damn him. Writing false citations is not unique to him, but it is a hit. Coming back from the war and saying those outragious, false, and well stupid things is unforgivable. ESPECSIALLY if you try and use your status as self declared "war criminal" as a bonus later in life. Sorry Cruddy, Kerry's net war veteran worth is in the negatives all considered.

But... he fought as hard as he could AGAINST the war as he did for it.

Doesn't that show some moral character?

Yes, US troops were hurt, tortured and killed in the Hanoi H.

But... that was policy. War was never declared, and so "standards" did not have to be maintained.

Put it another way - would you have rather he did nothing? That the war was allowed to continue because nobody actually cared?

It may smack of treachery when a soldier says "this war is wrong" - but from my angle, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO...

	24-08-2004 18:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Since when did you give a damn about that, less of us to vote against your idiocies. Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yes, his support is not common- given how low it is, how high his negatives are, all after just 3 years since having sky high approvals.

I guess being out at sea so much lets the sea salt melt brains

	24-08-2004 18:34									#56
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Troll that need not polute the discussion, so deleted

Last edited by Patroklos on 24-08-2004 at 18:40

	24-08-2004 18:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No, it isn't, because people have to pay to see it, as opposed to having it hoisted upon them like and ad. And so the democrats had Moore come to their convention- wow, what a shocker, an anti-Bush celeb! Why, how dare the democracts do that! I mean, I am sure the repugs will have NO celebrities at their convention!!!

Please, Gepap, you're better than that. You know very well F911 is a publicity stunt that directly profited Kerry. It was an internationally broadcasted, hugely successful negative campaigning against Bush.

And it did blatantly benefit Kerry. That was part of the campaign against Bush, and there's a reason Moore is closer and closer with the Dems, while being further and further from Nader.

quote: Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

No it's not.
Ming used an "independent" campaign tool he was sure I'd know. And he was right using that example.

	24-08-2004 18:37									#58
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quote: Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

:sigh:

Okay, I will hold your hand. MILITARY VOTERS.

Its alright, like I said you are having a bad day.

	24-08-2004 18:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If anyone has a gripe it is the POW's (Which makes McCain's friendship with Kerry all teh more puzzling). Like it or not it is not public apporval the POWS were craving, but freedom. Given the thought process that in the military "We leave no man behind" the acts he engaged were designed to exit the war ASAP and be damned with the POW's. Thus a direct betrayal of the POWs. (I heard you argue that Nixon had no strategy, but buy 71 it surely had become) Nixons strategy was an exit with honor one which meant he needed to get the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table which they were unwilling to do in light of their impression of the US homefront. Acts such as Kerry's IMO undermined that effort and therefor casued needless death and suffering. If you recall correctly, the biggest bone of contention in the talks was release of the POW's as the North Vietnamese had branded them war criminals not POWS.

Wait, you mean like we play games classifying war prisoners? And the sad fact is the Norht Koreans had as good a standing as we did for such games.

But I mean, horrid commies! They only did that thanks to John Kerry!

Nixon lost the home front when his lie about Cambodia came out, and after events like at Kent State.

quote: If you don't think that bears holding a grudge for 33 years your sorely mistaken.

No, it does not bear holding a grudge- anymore than some German soldier who languished for nearly a decade in the Soviet gulags should bear a grudge at his fellow countrymen who did not support the invasion of the SU.

	24-08-2004 18:38									#60
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quote: I guess being out at sea so much lets the sea salt melt brains

No (well maybe a little), but what it does do is make you owe me your life, liberty, and freedom. I don't need your respect