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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
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We could've actually spent the money Congress allocated for reconstruction (we used their oil revenues, for the most part) |
You mean the Iraqi's used there own resources to help themselves, investing in their own future and able to point at the fact that they finaced their recovery? Were is the bad here, glad we did this. We used the money to cover our end, theirs for their end.
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to contract out to Iraq businesses and Iraqi workers, rather than give out corporate welfare with these oil revenues to some notoriously antiunion American firms |
You mean the nonexistant Iraq firms that are incapable of doing what is nessasary. Of course the vast majority of the workers are Iraqi, unfortunetly their engineers and such fled as soon as possible. The only thing you really have against Haliburton is that they are a "corporation," wich despite being entities responisble for our way of life have some how been equated with "devil."
Not sure where the union is coming from, I guess current events bleeding in. The last thing Iraq needs is labor unions, that is the later phase of economic development (shouldn't skip steps).
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We could've supported democracy in Iraq, instead of handing out power exclusively to corrupt exiles |
Agree but again what we want not what we can. We had no idea who these elusive better leaders you speak of were at the time, still don't. Easy answer, there are none. Of course we could have held elections in each town as we overran it, I don't think the results would be encouraging.
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who used that power took over large parts of the Iraqi economy. |
As has been said, anyone smart enough to lead an economy was either part of the last one, or fled. Seems perfectly reasonable they shoulds run it. Corruption yes, but what do you expect, they just had a war!
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We could've opposed militas, instead of having an idiotic policy towards them, even importing the Badr Corps from Iran. |
Agree with you, but can you imagine the bloodshed there. I can handle it, how about the average whiny American though.
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We could've supported Iraqi freedom of press, instead of squashing the Sadrist paper, which set off their rebellion (in addition to the various other aforemented actions). |
Again you are skipping steps. There was abviously more important things than freedom of the press, like functioning utilities and whatnot. In due time. As if that would have made any difference to Sadr, that revolt was coming regardless. Nevermind he was accused by Iraqis of assasination. But I will go with you, keep freedom of press, assasinate Sadr.
Alot of this is because we assume the Iraqis are a peace loving, advance people eager to lift themselves out of the mess given too them. No one ever stops consider that maybe they are not.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
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I remember an old Dunesberry about the secret bombing. BJ had been shot down and was wandering around with a guy from the Pathet Lao in Laos (which we were also secretly bombing, turning the Plain of Jars into a plain of craters). Anyway, Phred mentions it's two o'clock, time for the bombing, and BJ says the bombing's supposed to be a secret. Phred is like, secret to who?
Ned, bombing from 10,000 is pretty indiscriminate. B-52s don't just take out Commies. They also take out whole villages who have nothing to do with the war. That's why we killed half a million Cambodians, as well as two million Vietnamese. We destroyed whole ecosystems. An area the size of Massachusetts was turned into a desert in Vietnam. That doesn't happen with pinpoint accuracy.
When you consider the miniscule numbers of troops and supplies coming down the Ho Chi Min trail, the effort we put in to interdicting it and the damage that resulted from it weren't worth it.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:33
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quote:
You mean the Iraqi's used there own resources to help themselves, investing in their own future and able to point at the fact that they finaced their recovery? Were is the bad here, glad we did this. We used the money to cover our end, theirs for their end. |
No, that's not what I wrote. I wrote that we used their oil revenues to fund our corporate welfare. They didn't have any input on how the reconstruction funds were disbursed. We gave corporate welfare to our businesses, and had the Iraqis foot the bill.
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You mean the nonexistant Iraq firms that are incapable of doing what is nessasary. |
Except they were there. And they were offering their services at far lower prices than those we contracted.
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Of course the vast majority of the workers are Iraqi, |
Lots of businesses that we contracted imported their workers from other places (East Asia, India, etc.), so they would have less bargaining ability than Iraqi workers.
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unfortunetly their engineers and such fled as soon as possible. |
What are you talking about?
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The only thing you really have against Haliburton is that they are a "corporation," wich despite being entities responisble for our way of life have some how been equated with "devil." |
No. The big problem is that it's been given massive corporate welfare out of the Iraqis' pockets.
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Not sure where the union is coming from, I guess current events bleeding in. The last thing Iraq needs is labor unions, that is the later phase of economic development (shouldn't skip steps). |
Labor unions are about economic justice. At a time when workers are being ****ed over, they're especially needed. And there are no "steps." Again, we've been using Saddam's own laws to crush labor unions.
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Agree but again what we want not what we can. We had no idea who these elusive better leaders you speak of were at the time, still don't. |
Sistani, for example, has been an excellent leader.
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Of course we could have held elections in each town as we overran it, I don't think the results would be encouraging. |
That's what democracy is about (as for holding elections as we overrun a town, I don't know what you're on about). It doesn't matter if we don't like the results. Besides the intrinsic value of democracy, this would've been the single thing that could've quelled the Shia insurgency (and it'd help in other areas of Iraq).
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As has been said, anyone smart enough to lead an economy was either part of the last one, or fled. |
And you base that bald assertion on what?
This is a very educated society.
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Corruption yes, but what do you expect, they just had a war! |
There would've been less corruption if we didn't hand over the economy to a man convicted of bank fraud.
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Agree with you, but can you imagine the bloodshed there. I can handle it, how about the average whiny American though. |
Not very much bloodshed would be needed. Not importing the Badr Corps doesn't take any bloodshed. Not giving these relatively small, unpopular groups police powers doesn't take any bloodshed.
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As if that would have made any difference to Sadr, that revolt was coming regardless. Nevermind he was accused by Iraqis of assasination. But I will go with you, keep freedom of press, assasinate Sadr. |
Assassinating him would've been foolish, arresting him (before he grew so powerful) would've been fine.
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Alot of this is because we assume the Iraqis are a peace loving, advance people eager to lift themselves out of the mess given too them. No one ever stops consider that maybe they are not. |
No, it's because we gave power exclusively to the elites and undermined democracy and freedom at every turn. They're not happy to be ****ed over by Chalabis and Allawis that we impose on them.
Last edited by Ramo on 24-08-2004 at 22:46
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I remember an old Dunesberry about the secret bombing. BJ had been shot down and was wandering around with a guy from the Pathet Lao in Laos (which we were also secretly bombing, turning the Plain of Jars into a plain of craters). Anyway, Phred mentions it's two o'clock, time for the bombing, and BJ says the bombing's supposed to be a secret. Phred is like, secret to who?
Ned, bombing from 10,000 is pretty indiscriminate. B-52s don't just take out Commies. They also take out whole villages who have nothing to do with the war. That's why we killed half a million Cambodians, as well as two million Vietnamese. We destroyed whole ecosystems. An area the size of Massachusetts was turned into a desert in Vietnam. That doesn't happen with pinpoint accuracy.
When you consider the miniscule numbers of troops and supplies coming down the Ho Chi Min trail, the effort we put in to interdicting it and the damage that resulted from it weren't worth it. |
Wildly inflated, of course. Even when bombing troops, we were nowhere near as effective as you claim.
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24-08-2004 21:57
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