30-08-2004 06:59									#151
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quote: Which is a 20 year old story. Maybe we should talk about what Bush was doing 20 years ago *sniffffff* oh that's the good ****!

Hey, if Bush gets up at the Republican Convention and focuses almost solely on his past experience as a party boy as the reason why he should be president, then let's talk about it, by all means.

Kerry's the one who brought up events from 35 years ago, so it's assinine to criticize others for following his lead.

	30-08-2004 11:43									#152
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quote: Democrats have delighted in scolding various Republicans as "war wimps" - public officials and think-tank types who advocate the use of military force and who did not themselves serve in the military. On the kindest interpretation, the "war wimps" charge is based on a non sequitur, linking two things that have nothing to do with each other (military service as a young man, on the one hand, and sound judgment in geopolitical affairs, on the other).

No Mr Ferguson, it's not about people who do or don't serve, it's about people who are pro-war but found a way to get out of fighting, i.e., people who think Vietnam was necessary for our country's security but decided to avoid the war. They're called "chickenhawks", not war wimps.

quote: In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king...

In the land of the brain-dead, the half-wit is king.

	30-08-2004 11:52									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Not speaking to anyone in particular but why don't all you folks that think this is a non issue or that Bush is a worse scumbag than Kerry start your own thread? You could call it "Bush is a worse scumbag than Kerry" for example. This thread is about Kerry's fitness for command. What makes him fit or unfit to command our armed forces? Does being an admitted war criminal and a fabricator of war stories make one fit to command? Is that a virtue in today's political climate?

Kerry's absolute fitness or lack thereof is irrelevant; his fitness relative to Bush is the only thing that could possibly be important.

	30-08-2004 14:07									#154
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Lincoln, let them come; a vigorous debate is what this thread is all about.

As for me, I think that Kerry's choice of his war record as a centerpiece of his campaign shows that he himself has little confidence in his own abilities as a lawmaker or statesman. Further, his belief that his war record would be unassailable demonstrates a certain lack of understanding of human nature, which is worrying considering where he might have to take us.

	30-08-2004 14:17									#155
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Can you imagine what would happen if Kerry had to take the criticism Bush has taken over the last four years? I think the man would crack...

	30-08-2004 14:21									#156
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Bush, OTOH, deserved that criticism.

	30-08-2004 15:14									#157
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The Kerry campaign has it out for Laura Bush now based on a rather innocuous remark she made when asked about the SwiftVet ads for the next issue of Time.

quote: First lady criticized for swift boat remark WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Kerry campaign Sunday criticized first lady Laura Bush for what the campaign called her "statement in support of the swift boat smear ads." The campaign was referring to a new Time magazine interview in which Mrs. Bush is asked about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads attacking Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry's war record and his comments upon return from Vietnam. In the interview she is asked, "Do you think these swift boat ads are unfair to John Kerry?" "Not really," she replies. "There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband." President Bush has praised Kerry's war record but has refused to condemn the attacks in the group's ads. The Kerry campaign has alleged the Bush campaign illegally cooperated with the group in producing the ads -- a charge the campaign and the group vigorously deny. Bush-Cheney legal adviser Benjamin Ginsberg and retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier, an unpaid adviser to the campaign on veterans' issues, resigned the campaign this week over their involvement with the swift boat group. "Mrs. Bush's statement in support of the swift boat smear ads is more sad evidence that these attacks have been coordinated from the top down at the White House," Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said in a statement. Several statements by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth directly contradict the Navy record of events and in some cases their own previous statements. Other statements are more opinion than fact based. "The president still stubbornly refuses to repudiate these lies. [Senator] John McCain knows from personal experience that these attacks are shameful and wrong. The president should answer McCain's call to renounce these lies once and for all." McCain, R-Arizona, one of the Republican National Convention's main speakers and a Vietnam veteran who was a POW for five-and-a-half years, has called the ads "dishonest and dishonorable." He was the target of similar ads questioning his Vietnam record during the 2000 Republican primary campaign eventually won by Bush. (Bush asks McCain to help block 527s) Bush's policies have been the subject of attacks by other independent groups known as 527s. Bush has called for an end to all political ads by the so-called 527 groups -- so named for the part of the law that addresses them -- and has challenged Kerry to join him in that call. Kerry condemned an ad attacking Bush's war record.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS...lady/index.html

Desperation, anyone? I wonder what sort of political gain Kerry thinks he's going to get out of attacking a school teacher...

	30-08-2004 15:37									#158
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quote: In the interview she is asked, "Do you think these swift boat ads are unfair to John Kerry?" "Not really," she replies. "There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband."

Between the two, Bush has been far more negative and dishonest. But it appears 2 wrongs make a right in Mrs Bush's moral system... And hypocritical too... She obviously doesn't think ads against her hubby have been fair...

	30-08-2004 15:58									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I looked up Kerry on Google News, and the only press that seem to be still going with SWVFT are the foaming-at-the-mouth right wing nutters. Everyone else gave it up when it turned out there was no proof. Even Bush is having to distance himself from it now.

Judging from amount of all caps and large letter formats posted in this thread which side has been foaming at the mouth?

	30-08-2004 16:03									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, yeah let's divert attention from Kerry's lack of character. This is important, because he obviously is a communist.

:gasp: :tears: :Pants:

How could I miss this gem, It's been a minute I've been laughing like an idiot in front of my computer

	30-08-2004 16:10									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Between the two, Bush has been far more negative and dishonest. But it appears 2 wrongs make a right in Mrs Bush's moral system... And hypocritical too... She obviously doesn't think ads against her hubby have been fair...

It would be innappropriate to characterize Bush per se as negative and dishonest wrt to campaigning. He has in every way attempted to stay above the fray. Now his minions and underlings are a different story.

This marks a huge contrast between himself and Kerry (who has IMO acted the whining little girl.)

Advantage Bully pulpit, but also it makred his 2000 campaign as well where he campaigned in a disciplined fashion.

	30-08-2004 16:40									#162
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Kerry is turning out to be a piss-poor campaigner.

	30-08-2004 16:41									#163
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Turning out to be? I was under the impression that it was clear from the very beginning...

	30-08-2004 16:43									#164
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Kroptokin:

The Dems didn't believe so, when they elected it during the primaries, on the sole ground he looked like he had the highest "electability"

	30-08-2004 16:44									#165
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Spiff beat me to it...

	30-08-2004 16:50									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Kroptokin: The Dems didn't believe so, when they elected it during the primaries, on the sole ground he looked like he had the highest "electability"

Well doh, I'm talking about the perspective of insightful people in general, not a few potheads with a membership card in the Mickey Mouse club (ie the democratic party).

	30-08-2004 17:13									#168
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quote: It would be innappropriate to characterize Bush per se as negative and dishonest wrt to campaigning. He has in every way attempted to stay above the fray. Now his minions and underlings are a different story. This marks a huge contrast between himself and Kerry (who has IMO acted the whining little girl.) Advantage Bully pulpit, but also it makred his 2000 campaign as well where he campaigned in a disciplined fashion.

You have a short memory, even if we give Bush a pass on these war ads, Bush spent 10's of millions earlier in the year trashing Kerry. And yes, deceitful is an accurate description of some of those ads.

	30-08-2004 17:21									#169
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His "electability" stemmed on them thinking he could replicate Clintons fake cool thing.

All the Bush commercials I have seen simple tell you Kerry's Senete voting record, and if that is deemed negative then Kerry shoudl have voted differently. Now you can lean on that simple information for whatever point of view you want to convey, but the basic facts given were correct. Bush's opionion of those facts is exactly what I want to hear. And visa vers for Kerry.

At least Bush's own adds have something to do with current problems, ie mostly taxes. EVERY Kerry commercial I have seen, originating from Kerry, deals with Vietnam.

	30-08-2004 17:56									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker You have a short memory, even if we give Bush a pass on these war ads, Bush spent 10's of millions earlier in the year trashing Kerry. And yes, deceitful is an accurate description of some of those ads.

You speak of the Bush camapaign in total not the individual candidates. Pleae use the appropriate references to either campaign or candidate.

Bush has (prolly for propiety sake and because he can via bully pulpit) been the modicom of restraint in comparison to the plethora of smear attacks done not only by the Dem party (surrogates and affiliates) but the individual candidates.

	30-08-2004 18:03									#171
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On Friday on the News Hour I heard from an expert that the campaign law prohobits 527's from airing any TV ads that mention one candidate or another within 60 days of the election, meaning about Sept. 1 all such ads must end, if this guy is right.

If that is true, so much for the media these guys are getting from anyone but Newscorp. The media Oxygen is gone.

quote: Turning out to be? I was under the impression that it was clear from the very beginning...

Yes, just ask all the guys he has previously beat..piss poor....

	30-08-2004 18:29									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Ogie - Then you have to live with the contradiction in O'Neill's statements, not me. I guess "in" doesn't mean "in" now. O'Neill said he was "in" Cambodia, along the border. That suggests 2 places - along the border and in Cambodia... It does not suggest one place - along the border...

When given contradictory statements one ususally then looks at context. Contextually speaking he supported strongly Nixon and as such would have never implicated the crossing over into Cambodia. You prefer to thinkhis inappropriate phrasology to be a Fruedian slip, I on the other hand give him enough credit as a well spoken indivdual who more than held his own in debates against Kerry to be merely defining/refining his previous misspoken statement.

quote: That's praiseworthy?

No thats a reflection of what others on this board think of him.

quote: He was talking to a guy he served with and when he found out the guy was a member of the group Kerry asked him why, he was not offering oodles of money to run attack ads against Bush - that would be coordinating.

If I have not covered this before it's expressly forbidden for two reasons IMO. 1) exactly what you espoused payoff or hush money.
2) because interrogating nonadvocacy 527 groups allows competitive intel (not to mention potential harassment and disruption of their right to free speach) that is to be prohibitted by the nature of the 527/candidate relationship. Heck if competetive intel weren't of such major import than why was Watergate such a big deal?

	30-08-2004 20:29									#173
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quote: Originally posted by GePap On Friday on the News Hour I heard from an expert that the campaign law prohobits 527's from airing any TV ads that mention one candidate or another within 60 days of the election, meaning about Sept. 1 all such ads must end, if this guy is right. If that is true, so much for the media these guys are getting from anyone but Newscorp. The media Oxygen is gone. quote: Turning out to be? I was under the impression that it was clear from the very beginning... Yes, just ask all the guys he has previously beat..piss poor....

Only if they accept union or corporate money.

	30-08-2004 20:30									#174
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I understand that McCain has blessed criticism of Kerry's antiwar activities after he returned from Vietnam.

	30-08-2004 20:39									#175
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I was going to post that. He has expressly stated that attacks onhis war record are off limits but does not limit (perhaps even encorages) debate around his actions circa 1971.

	30-08-2004 21:22									#176
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Twenty years ago, Kerry said that Rassmann fell off his boat when he turned to flee the mine explosion on Swift Boat 3. Kerry's current version calls for a second mine explosion that knocks Rassmann off.

Bad memory?

	30-08-2004 21:30									#177
	Suffering from ads?

WHO ****ING CARES?

	30-08-2004 21:35									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker WHO ****ING CARES?

Kuci, only people who are concerned about voting for president and who have not made up their minds.

Obviously, you and I are not in that group because you and I have already made up our minds.

But mark my words, this issue is important to independents.

	30-08-2004 21:37									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker WHO ****ING CARES?

As McCain said, nobody remembers what happened in combat accuarately.

	30-08-2004 21:38									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But mark my words, this issue is important to independents.

Pretty stupid independents.