29-08-2004 05:00									#1
	Way to go Spain - aka The results of giving in to terrorist demands Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: End Headscarf Ban, Iraq Hostage Takers Warn France By Miral Fahmy DUBAI (Reuters) - An Iraqi militant group has kidnapped two French journalists and given the French government 48 hours to end its ban on Muslim headscarves in school, Arabic television station Al Jazeera said Saturday. Jazeera identified the hostages as reporters George Malbrunot and Christian Chesnot. Last week, the French Foreign Ministry said the two men had gone missing in Iraq. The channel aired a brief video showing what it said were the two journalists standing in front of a black banner bearing the name of the Islamic Army in Iraq. One man told the camera: "I would like to tell my family that everything is OK." [...] The Al Jazeera announcer said the Islamic Army in Iraq issued an ultimatum to France to abandon its "unfair and aggressive" ban on Muslim headscarves in state schools within 48 hours. It did not say whether the group threatened to kill its captives if France did not comply. [...] Activist groups have branded the headscarf law discriminatory and defended what they said was the religious obligation of all Muslim women to cover their hair. Earlier this year, senior al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri lambasted France's ban on Muslim headscarves, saying in an audio tape that Paris was displaying "Crusader hatred" toward Islam. [...]

I always warned that once you give in to terrorist demands, you legitimize the use of terrorist tactics in their eyes.

I always claimed that terrorism must be disclaimed inllegitimate and no demands must be ever met.

Some here have claimed that terrorism will stop once we take away its justification. I always warned, that terrorism must be stopped regardless of justification, because it will end up using as a political tool regardless of justification.

Some here have even claimed that terrorism is a legitimate measure because of the justification the groups exclaimed cause gives them. "Freedom fighting" it was called.

Well how is this any different?

These are just "poor opressed muslems" fighting against "european colonialist opression".

Next we will see anti-globalization activists kidnapping and executing people during WTO meetings. And this will also be labled "freedom fighting" against "evil capitalist opression".


as I always claimed:
Terrorism is just another method of political bartering.
It is wrong and should be clearly made illegitimate.

It should always be condemned. It should always be fought.

Demands by terrorists should never - ever be met. This only legitimizes terrorism as "a method that works".

The same people that use terrorism today to demand things which you think they deserve, will end up demanding what ever they think they can achieve.

STOP TOUTING TERRORISM NOW.

	29-08-2004 05:03									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, at least it takes their eyes off of the US for a while.

	29-08-2004 05:05									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Demands by terrorists should never - ever be met. This only legitimizes terrorism as "a method that works".

So if terrorist kidnapped a bunch of Palestinians and demanded Arafat step down from power or be killed, you would demand Araft state he would NEVER step down as long as Terrorists wanted that?

Or what about Reagan running from Lebanon after HIzbullah bombed the barracks and the CIA station?

The fact is terrorism, like bombing people, does have the effect sometimes of getting others to yield. Welcome to reality.

	29-08-2004 05:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They can go **** themselves.

There's no way we remove the headscarf ban in 48 hours, especially during the holidays

	29-08-2004 05:42									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

[appeaser name-calling]

[bizzare absolute session]

[appeal to patriotism]

[appeaser! terrorist!]

	29-08-2004 05:44									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Let's see how this plays out.

	29-08-2004 05:47									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Cuz the Israeli method has worked so damned well.

What does this have to do with the Spanish conservatives lying to their people saying it was ETA that bombed the trains when they knew it was AQ?

	29-08-2004 05:47									#8
	Suffering from ads?

wait...explain what this has to do with spain.

	29-08-2004 05:47									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

What method would you recommend?

	29-08-2004 05:48									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Verto What method would you recommend?

A more intelligent one. Think about it. Israel has been using the exact same methods for the last 56 years, and yet they still face terrorism.

	29-08-2004 05:51									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A more intelligent one.

You watch too much coverage of the presidential campaign.

"My opponent is doing the wrong thing. I will do the right thing, because my opponent is doing the wrong thing.

	29-08-2004 05:52									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Verto You watch too much coverage of the presidential campaign. "My opponent is doing the wrong thing. I will do the right thing, because my opponent is doing the wrong thing.

its funny cause its true

	29-08-2004 05:53									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Verto You watch too much coverage of the presidential campaign.

If you keep doing the same thing over and over again for 56 years, and it doesn't work, why wouldn't you try a different approach?

	29-08-2004 05:54									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A more intelligent one. Think about it. Israel has been using the exact same methods for the last 56 years, and yet they still face terrorism.

Well, France actively worked against the United States regarding Iraq, is not militarily involved, yet is still facing terrorists trying to dictate policy to them.

	29-08-2004 05:56									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Verto Well, France actively worked against the United States regarding Iraq, is not militarily involved, yet is still facing terrorists trying to dictate policy to them.

Because French Muslims claim they're being oppressed? Interestingly, terrorists entire agenda isn't Iraq.

	29-08-2004 05:58									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Verto, France and Spain might not have happened if we didn't tip Iraq. Not saying they would have! Or wouldn't have. I'm not a predictor, but it just seems like Iraq changes all the variables.

Besides, see things in color instead of black and white. Che isn't advocating that we ALWAYS negotiate, or ALWAYS fight. You should be smart enough to know that.

	29-08-2004 06:37									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you keep doing the same thing over and over again for 56 years, and it doesn't work, why wouldn't you try a different approach?

I wouldn't say it doesn't work. The state of Israel is still well and alive, after all.

	29-08-2004 06:46									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Stop Spain bashing in this context!! The Spanish government was voted out because they lied just in the days leading to the election, not because of terrorist threats. Is it that you don't understand this, or just don't want to understand?

	29-08-2004 06:55									#19
	Re: Way to go Spain - aka The results of giving in to terrorist demands Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Demands by terrorists should never - ever be met. This only legitimizes terrorism as "a method that works".

What does this have to do with Spain?

	29-08-2004 06:57									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I wouldn't say it doesn't work. The state of Israel is still well and alive, after all.

They have failed to stop Palestinian terrorism against them.

	29-08-2004 07:07									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They have failed to stop Palestinian terrorism against them.

A perfect result has not been achieved, but the main goal (to survive) has been fulfilled. This is what I actually meant.

	29-08-2004 07:12									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond A perfect result has not been achieved, but the main goal (to survive) has been fulfilled.

As terrorism was never a serious threat to the existence of the Israeli state, the counter-terrorist tactics Israel persued were irrelevent in this regard. The serious threts to the existence of Israel came from other states. Counter-terrorism efforts have only one serious goal, to stop terrorist attacks. In this regard, Israeli tactics have been an abismal failure.

They've only just recently seem to have gotten it under control, and I suspect the fence has more to do with that than anything else.

	29-08-2004 07:30									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think the Iraqi freedom fighters merely want to flaunt their authority , such that, much later on, they will be looked up to.

Such an absolutist decision on terrorism makes one rigid and inflexible. May I remind you, terrorists can still win even if demands are not met. They can still inspire terror, pressure people, and continue about their usual routine. The fact that they have the power to kill and massacre is incentive enough, its a win-win situation for them. (Unless you catch them, of course, but that doesn't happen everyday) Especially when you deal with martyrs.

Terrorism is just guerilla act of war between parties (whether recognised or not). Therefore it should be treated like war. Now, we don't go, "We will never sign a peace treaty with you! We will fight to the death!", now do we?

	29-08-2004 07:35									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Now, we don't go, "We will never sign a peace treaty with you! We will fight to the death!", now do we?

That's pretty much their attitude. When you are dealing with people would almost rather die, you don't have a lot of choice in how you deal with them..

	29-08-2004 07:39									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: One man told the camera: "I would like to tell my family that everything is OK."

poor guy

quote: France to abandon its "unfair and aggressive" ban on Muslim headscarves in state school

Yeah, cut of everybody's head and the headscarf problem will cease to be
Good thing they aren't unfair and aggressive

******* bastards.

	29-08-2004 08:08									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you keep doing the same thing over and over again for 56 years, and it doesn't work, why wouldn't you try a different approach?

It was Einstein who said, "conitinuing the same action, and expecting different results is a form of insanity."

	29-08-2004 08:20									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They can go **** themselves. There's no way we remove the headscarf ban in 48 hours, especially during the holidays

If these journalists are executed, what would you expect the French Government to do to get justice for their murdered citizens?

	29-08-2004 08:32									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: That's pretty much their attitude. When you are dealing with people would almost rather die, you don't have a lot of choice in how you deal with them..

But they'd rather not die if they could get the conditions to be agreed. Also, the hostage's countries adopt this attitude too, so the terrorists would deliver their word, no?

How can they sign a treaty if the other side won't negotiate in the first place? And treaties won't be signed until conditions are favourable/weighed, first, no?

	29-08-2004 08:32									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

They should remove the ban regardless of what the terrorists say.

	29-08-2004 08:35									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A more intelligent one. Think about it. Israel has been using the exact same methods for the last 56 years, and yet they still face terrorism.

Comeon Che, you know that is blatantly false. The nature of the terrorist threat, and Israel's policies towards terrorism have varied greatly throughout the years, all over the spectrum from attempting to assiante terrrorist leader arafat, to letting him in the country and giving him land and a troop allowance. Israel has not been doing the eaxt same thing for the last 56 years. Their new tactic, building a big wall, is a new thing they are trying.

Try to spin the isssue is much as you like, and talk about an unspecified more intellegent way of fighting terrorism all you like, but terrorism still places a fundamental choice on the victimized country: Either give in, or attempt to fight the terrorists.