30-08-2004 02:13									#91
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France guarantee the safety of its citizens?????

	30-08-2004 02:37									#92
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Ned, what's the difference? If you say you guarantee the safety of your citizen, you can't really make it so. YOu can try, but it won't be set in stone. You can't handle all situations coming to you. So even if you say it, it's worth... what? Not much. Just saying soem words without content is not worth much.

Do you feel safe because someone says so if you're in danger?

What we have here is clashes between freedom of religion, basic freedoms and then opinion of the majority.

Is it true freedom, if I can choose to be under dictator? If I can't have a dictator option, then I'm really less free, right? I have one less option to choose. Why can't I choose what I want, if I really want it? And if the majority agrees, then what's the problem?

The problem is, freedom and other things as well are glued with time and situation. If you take the freedom, and choose to give it away, then the next day you are not free anymore. Not free enough to have freedom again. Thus, you have to have freedom with responsibility. True freedom is about options and choices. That makes a person free, when he can choose, as one thing. So, I can't choose to have my freedom taken away from me, and say I was so free I could do that. YEah it's an option you can't have, because it's against the nature of freedom. Freedom comes with responsibilities, we know it. And one of those responsiblities is to preserve it, and make sure no one is left out of it. Create more options. Tolerate dissent, because it is the very essense of true freedom.

Now, what about minorities? If we want to be truly free, we must guarantee the freedom for all minorities too. If we just rule major opinion as how we go in all things, then the minorities don't have freedom, and it is in the nature of freedom that it's available for everyone. There's no such thing as freedom for some, oppression for some in true free democracy.

So, freedom with responsibility. When you have an opinion, and you state it, it's your right and part of the freedom you have (in some countries). You can choose to not state it. You can have unpopular opinion. But when you state it, the others have freedom to oppose it too. They have the freedom to fight you (your issue). Just like you have the right to fight the popular issue that you think is not done correctly and is oppressing you.

THe thing that still makes it freedom, is that you can operate in those surroundings. Your freedom and rights guarantee, that you can operate, let your thoughts to be known, and fight for it, and you either succeed or not, but the point is you can try to do it.

Freedom of religion comes with limits too. It's not blank cheque. THere's no unlimited freedoms in anything. If my religion says I can kill a person if I want to, it can't be tolerated by the rest of us. Even if it's not braking the very laws we've set to guarantee our freedoms, it still is not necessary acceptable. Not in public spaces. You can do it in the privacy of your own home, or the place you use to worship and practice your religion. Those spaces are guaranteed that you have the freedom to waht you need to do.

BUt for example, if your religion says that you have to wear a camo suit, you bet your ass you can't walk with that to your school and look like militia. It's not against the law per se, but it's against the rules, and there's a reason for it. It's not limitng your freedom to religion. It's making a line as to what your responsibility is. Responsibility means, that there are rules, and if you follow those rules, then you can guarantee your freedom to it. Don't ever except to be free as in you can do what ever the hell you want, not in the name of freedom, not in the name of religion, not in the name of anything.

For example: if you need to make your food from animals in your traditional way with the religion, and you do it in your house, but you brake the health code doing it, don't expect it to go within the limits of freedom of religion. No, you can't do it. It's got nothing to do with the tradition that you want to continue. You're just going to have to find a way, or another place to do it. If your religion says you have to listen to loud preaching every morning 5.00AM, you bet your ass it's not ok if you're in 40 story apartment waking everyone up. Hey, it's not freedom of religion issue. It's about you being pain in the ass for everyone else issue, they have rights too.

The point is, it matters who is authorized to set the rules, and where the limit is drawn. If they decide, that public schools should have no sign of religions anywhere, they can do that. It might be stupid decision, but they can do that. School can set rules, that are not forbidden in the law, but they see it as an important thing to make it a rule. If it's NOT violating any laws, then hell yes they can do it.

But it has to cover al the bases. You can't ban scarf, and then allow other religions to be shown in big ways. BEcause that would be against one religion, and that sure as hell is limiting freedom of religion, if others are allowed to do it. Yes, you have to ban crosses too then. They can't be visible. I'm not sure if this is what the French did, but if they ban scarves, I think they sdhould ban crosses also.

It might not be a popular idea, it might not be a good idea, but if that's what they are set to do, they can do it, and it's not freedom of religion issue, or freedom issue in general.

NOW, we must study the Islam, and look if the head scarf is with major importance. Is it absolutely essential and necessary? HOw much of significance does it play in this religion. If it plays a HUGE role, we should think hard before banning it, even in public schools. If it doesn't play a huge role.... by all means. This is the part where majority opinion rules too. It allows to be ruled, if the issue is not set in stone. So, if you're in a free country like for example modern western country, then you still have to play by its rules. You can't say, well where is my freedom, if you actually have all the freedoms that others have, but you just happen not to like something. France didn't ban the scarf in public period. It banned it in public schools. IF it banned other religious insignia with the same bill, it's their decision. If they didn't, then it's not cool and could be an issue of freedom of religion.

	30-08-2004 02:40									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Steven Seagal.

KC Ryback is on that train???

	30-08-2004 02:45									#94
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Pekka, except for rescing its citizens from its former colonies in African when in danger, the French will do nothing, beyond complaining, to protect is citizens who are attacked abroad. You mentioned the word "try". Since when do they try? It's been a long time since France has been an honorable nation.

	30-08-2004 02:46									#95
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I have to admit, Under Seige was a fun movie.

	30-08-2004 02:48									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It's been a long time since France has been an honorable nation.

At least they know what honor truely is. The U.S. has never had any honor.

	30-08-2004 02:50									#97
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Ned, OK I see your point. I would agree, if I felt that your statement about France doing nothing for their citizens was true. Name an example, where France did nothing to protect its citizens?

Because I agree, it is the number one priority to make sure citizens are as safe as possible.

	30-08-2004 02:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara At least they know what honor truely is. The U.S. has never had any honor.

Rich, coming from a Soviet sycophant.

	30-08-2004 02:53									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have to admit, Under Seige was a fun movie.

Oh Yeah. I think the Playmate jumps out of the cake in that one.

	30-08-2004 02:54									#100
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oh yeah.. Erika Eleniak.. *drool* I had a huge crush on her from the baywatch, and then later on for a long time.. I don't think about it so often these days, but if she would ask me to hit it, I wouldn't think twice about it.

	30-08-2004 02:55									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Rich, coming from a Soviet sycophant.

Hardly a sycophant.

	30-08-2004 02:57									#102
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Please explain in what way France has shown itself to have honor, while America has always lacked it.

Or just call it a troll and we'll move on.

	30-08-2004 03:01									#103
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How many promises have the Americans kept with the Indians?

Also note that while the U.S. has poured much hate and scorn upon France in the last year, they have still continued to track down and capture members of the 911 plot. We treat them like ****, and they still act like an ally. That's honor.

	30-08-2004 03:07									#104
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Headscarves aren't the only way to hide the hair. Solve the problem at the root, shave their heads. No need to hide what ain't there.

	30-08-2004 03:12									#105
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The headscarf ban isn't really about women's hair. It's about try to control the growth of reactionary Islam in a secular republic.

	30-08-2004 03:14									#106
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We should of let the Soviets conquer the Middle East back during the Cold War. Communism has a way of crushing reactionary religions.

	30-08-2004 03:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How many promises have the Americans kept with the Indians? Also note that while the U.S. has poured much hate and scorn upon France in the last year, they have still continued to track down and capture members of the 911 plot. We treat them like ****, and they still act like an ally. That's honor.

The US government remained allied with France and did not pour scorn upon France. The US people did, but so did the French people pour scorn and hate at the US, with the support of traitors such as yourself.

	30-08-2004 03:37									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley We should of let the Soviets conquer the Middle East back during the Cold War. Communism has a way of crushing reactionary religions.

Tell that to the Poles. Or, for that manner, the Afghanis.

	30-08-2004 03:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The headscarf ban isn't really about women's hair. It's about try to control the growth of reactionary Islam in a secular republic.

You mean trying to control it's people and exclude a certain group from participating in public life when they aren't harming anyone? Arbitrarily forcing the values of the society at large down the throats of a group that is different? Sounds like something a commie would support.

	30-08-2004 03:42									#110
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Ouch... very nicely played, Shi .

	30-08-2004 03:47									#111
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If you ban all religious insignia in public school, it's not shoving down the throat, it's keeping religion out of school. If it's banned only from Islam, then it' sshoving down the throat.

	30-08-2004 05:39									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Sounds like something a commie would support.

Understanding it and agreeing with it are two different things.

	30-08-2004 07:09									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Pekka: I wholeheartedly agree with you. And in the case of this very thread, I don't think any external pressure will change our mind, bar maybe pressure from the EU.

I'm curious as to why pressure from the EU would force you to change it if France feels it's in the best interest of France.

	30-08-2004 07:59									#114
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How many promises have the Americans kept with the Indians? Also note that while the U.S. has poured much hate and scorn upon France in the last year, they have still continued to track down and capture members of the 911 plot. We treat them like ****, and they still act like an ally. That's honor.

Does that include French anti-Americanism? Does it also include selling weapons and advanced weapons technology to countries hostile to the US?

	30-08-2004 14:10									#115
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quote: You mean trying to control it's people and exclude a certain group from participating in public life when they aren't harming anyone? Arbitrarily forcing the values of the society at large down the throats of a group that is different? Sounds like something a commie would support.

Not harming anyone?

	30-08-2004 14:47									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I'm curious as to why pressure from the EU would force you to change it if France feels it's in the best interest of France.

Unlike the decisions of Iran, or of some terrorist group in Iraq, the decisions of the EU can be legally binding. If the EU court considers the ban opposite to human rights, France may end up paying a fine.

	30-08-2004 14:51									#117
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Does it also include selling weapons and advanced weapons technology to countries hostile to the US?

I thought the main provider of weaponry to Saudi Arabia was the US. I didn't know we had that a significant share in their weapon imports

	30-08-2004 14:56									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Does that include French anti-Americanism? Does it also include selling weapons and advanced weapons technology to countries hostile to the US?

Heh - very thin ice for both of these things. There seems to be a lot of US-supplied arms being brough to bear against western nations, particularly in the Middle East, and many nations that are less than ideally stable have American military technologies also.

Why is there such an anti-French feeling in some parts of America? It defies comprehension. No other country is so singled out, yet France has not stood alone against the US in anything I can immediately think of, least of all recent geopolitical events.

	30-08-2004 15:07									#119
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We opposed the US' splendid little war in Iraq.

That triggered their unleashing of hatred, but it was accumulated long before. Both countries have big egoes, and bark at each other for a long time.

During the last 4 years, we had a great mix with Chirac and Bush. Chirac is in the gaullist tradition of trying to show France's greatness by having a loud policy that often take cheap shots at the US. And Bush is an absolute non-diplomat, who is also an abomination in any Frenchman's eye (arrogant Texan religious and stupid cowboy - you can't get any worse, except maybe if you eat babies as a bonus).

	30-08-2004 16:56									#120
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Whatever petty hatred America has ever had twords France has always been nothing compared to what America has suffered from the average Frenchmen for basically the entire century.

And it isn't just against America, Fance is known worldwide for bieng arrogant and not working with everyone. Which isn't true, because there is what France says and what France does. For the most part, France has always been a staunch ally as long as they could say the opposite. God forbid they ever agreed with the US, because then they would lose face as one of our puppets.

Just my opinion that France hasn't gotte over their fall from a world power, a first rate world mover one anyways. They want the position the US has in the Western world now, the one they held for centuries before. The cultural icon of the civilization. For that reason they always have to SOUND different from us, even if they actually are not.

And of course the consequence of this is the reation France gets from us (and by no means just us). And you know what, I bet most Frenchmen deep down like it that way.