29-08-2004 22:56									#61
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Pekka:

I wholeheartedly agree with you. And in the case of this very thread, I don't think any external pressure will change our mind, bar maybe pressure from the EU.

	29-08-2004 22:58									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka We should not let them affect our decision making, AT ALL. That way, we win.

Obviously we shouldn't acquiesce to their demands, but you'd still have to take actions to prevent their threats - so they will unfortunately effect our decision making to some level. The types of threat determining what that level may be.

	29-08-2004 23:01									#63
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Well.. I'm not very familiar with EU and its position on these things. However, I just think that as basic method of not letting terrorism influence on any decision making. They do their thing, we do ours. If we respond to that in any way, we are letting them influence us. That can be used against us too. I prefer no influence. Even if some of the actions would be preferred by terrorists, but if it is also preferred by us and we have already considered how this affects terrorism and terrorists, we should go by what we think is what we need to do, no matter how insignificant political decision that might be. It don't make no one a lapdog of someone else, if the decision is truly done by ourselves.

If the French want to have headscarf ban, then that's their business. If they were already considering letting it go, and now as a coincidence terrorists want to have it gone too, and if French now let it go, it's not giving into terrorist demands, and if we think it is, then terrorists have already won. Because then we are guilty of polarized thinking. AKA black and white.

	29-08-2004 23:04									#64
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Dauphin, I disagree. I'd keep political decisions and threats of terrorism in cases like these separate. First of all, let them demand all they want. Anyone can demand things. But we make our own decisions, based on our own facts and opinions, not what terrorists are telling us. That's keeping separate.

On the other hand, dealing with terrosits should be limited to flying bullets and flying fists. If terrorists are trying to gain political demands, we launch rescue operation, attack, or anything that can be considered action. We put the pressure on them, and don't let their pressure affect us. What ever, let them demand ice cream, or changes in politics. We do what we want, and all they ever get is spec ops teams after them for commiting crimes against our countries and our citizens. That's it. Separate issues. They don't get to the negotiation table. They only get a meeting with assault teams. That's it.

	29-08-2004 23:05									#65
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Decision making ought to use reverse reactions: they demand the ban on headscarves in schools get lifted, we ban headscarves everywhere.

	29-08-2004 23:07									#66
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quote: In this case, the "stupid religionists" are the Muslims who insist wearing the scarf, or having their daughters wear the scarf.

I know.

quote: but the old-dtyle-Republican fanaticism did.

You say it like it's a bad thing.

I mean, we can go on like this, in the spirit of "New Age"...

"Open your mind, free yourself of your misconseptions against
Ethnical uniqueness (=racial segragation)
Preservation of cultures (=protecting misogyny, homophobia)
Freeing oneself from the pressures of modern life (= Become a blind follower of some "Guru", ala moon, or Hubbard, or whatever)
The possibility of other dimensions (=belief in crap like ghosts)
"

All of this New-Age bullshit is much like the Newspeak from 1984. Pretty or Romantic definitions for lies, or unsubstanciated claims, at best.

	29-08-2004 23:08									#67
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Smiley, I disagree. That would mean we let them interfere into our policies. We should not give them the luxury of that. That's only a tool for them. Better leave them without any tools.

	29-08-2004 23:12									#68
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Azazel, I would agree. If schools have a rule, then that's the way it goes in that country. We're not *****ing about if some schools in some countries MUST have scarves for women. Who would be bold enough to suggest, that some christian students or westerners now must not wear it beacuse somehow it's against our beliefs?

No no no.. you respect the local ways, that's the way it goes. If I go to a country where they don't want me cursing, I don't curse. If they want me to wear pants instead of shorts, I do exactly that. If they don't want me flashing my cross hanging on my neck, then I will hide it. I can always disagree with it, but if I brake that rule, then I will have to face the consequences of it. That's the way it goes, and should go.

	29-08-2004 23:16									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Dauphin, I disagree. I'd keep political decisions and threats of terrorism in cases like these separate. First of all, let them demand all they want. Anyone can demand things. But we make our own decisions, based on our own facts and opinions, not what terrorists are telling us. That's keeping separate. On the other hand, dealing with terrosits should be limited to flying bullets and flying fists. If terrorists are trying to gain political demands, we launch rescue operation, attack, or anything that can be considered action. We put the pressure on them, and don't let their pressure affect us. What ever, let them demand ice cream, or changes in politics. We do what we want, and all they ever get is spec ops teams after them for commiting crimes against our countries and our citizens. That's it. Separate issues. They don't get to the negotiation table. They only get a meeting with assault teams. That's it.

Terrorists fly planes into buildings - you increase security at airports to prevent them doing just that. That is a reaction and a necessary one, but my point is that you are responding to the terrorists by doing that.

	29-08-2004 23:19									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You say it like it's a bad thing.

Of course it's a bad thing. And I'm saying it despite hoping to see the headscarf completely disappear some day:

A few core principles have been stated since the creation of the Third Republic (which was also the first longlasting one). Among those, laicity at school was very important, since the School was the main instrument into unifying France as one culture, one community.

These principles have become dogma with time, and they are now not subject to interpretation, or not subject to mere reflection.

We can consider "laicity" as plenty of different things. But because of our lack of reflection, it remains the unenforceable, useless idea of a school devoid of religion.

it's a given fact now that there are too many lifestyles, and too many ethnical oppositions / hatreds for France to keep being one unified community. If we want to solve that problem, we have to be pragmatists and acknowledge how deep it is, instead of trying superficial, useless and contraproductive methods, that could have been useful 50 years ago.

	29-08-2004 23:29									#71
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And Azazel:

Since I followed the sig in your link to go to the Civ4 list, I hereby order you to reply to my post there

	29-08-2004 23:30									#72
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quote: it's a given fact now that there are too many lifestyles, and too many ethnical oppositions / hatreds for France to keep being one unified community. If we want to solve that problem, we have to be pragmatists and acknowledge how deep it is, instead of trying superficial, useless and contraproductive methods, that could have been useful 50 years ago.

So basically, what you're saying is that you're trying to combat a problem by admitting defeat in the fight? ( I see what this "pragmatism" means, Spiff. embracing "multiculturalism" )

foreign ethnicities in france are nothing new. And all of them have went through the melting pot. You've got to stand for what's right.

quote: No no no.. you respect the local ways, that's the way it goes. If I go to a country where they don't want me cursing, I don't curse. If they want me to wear pants instead of shorts, I do exactly that. If they don't want me flashing my cross hanging on my neck, then I will hide it. I can always disagree with it, but if I brake that rule, then I will have to face the consequences of it. That's the way it goes, and should go.

This is not really the case either, though it makes for a good point in an argument. Would you beat "your woman" into submission, too, just because it's the law of the land? nonsense. Ethics shouldn't be geography specific.

	29-08-2004 23:31									#73
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Dauphin, yes. But that's not a political demand. That's action. We see, A-HA! we have some holes in our security, let's boost it up. It's not a political issue.

It's like this. We find that our citizen is being held captive. There are political demands. The only people who wake up middle in the night and form a group who responds to this is security personel. They make plans to attack.

Everyone else continues to sleep.

We shouldn't even respond in media to these demands. We should make it a known policy, that only people who will respond to it will be people who will answer with action and no one else. When ordinary criminals demands things, they only get responses from cops. That's they way it should be in bigger scale terrorism as well.

People make it an issue of freedom when the scarves come into play. I don't believe this is the case in here. Since schools are public, well at least the public schools, that means everyones kids are going in there. Freedom of religion comes with rules too, just like every other freedom. I dont' want my kid going to shcool everyday that has all religions presented. The people can be, but I don't want their traditions in there. I want my kid to grow up in religion free environment when it comes to school. I don't want that he gets light headed in the mixture of all these things when his mind is open to everything. I want him/her to be able to grow up, mature up, and in the meantime learn about religions, sure, but I don't want there to be any 'recruitment' possibility. Keep religion out of schools! Except for religion classes where they teaceh you about different religions. And since this IS possible in our countries, I'd like to keep tha tpossibility in action too.

	29-08-2004 23:32									#74
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Pekka: the war we're fighting against terrorism is primarily an ideological one. You don't win a war by pretending it doesn't exist: see France/England in 1939.

Now since their goal isn't to kill people, it's to impose their ideals, we do things that make their actions counterproductive. They want to interfere with our policies? Well, we turn things around and mess with theirs. It's the same reason that Poly hands out post count reductions for spammers.

	29-08-2004 23:33									#75
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Azazel, no, because the law would be stupid. If that would be the law, I wouldn't live in that country. You can always move.

This is basically a traditional custom and the freedom for it vs. who says what goes.

I don't see a place in religion in public schools. BUT I'd like that option to be used by the school. If school WANTS to allow the wear of scarf, it should be able to do that too.

	29-08-2004 23:34									#76
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Smiley, I disagree. I disagree with the method of fighting the terrorism. I think the only way we should fight terrorism is attacking terrorist in military level. It's not turning your back and saying it isn't there. It's keepign them out of the negotiating tables of any kind.

	29-08-2004 23:35									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I don't see a place in religion in public schools. BUT I'd like that option to be used by the school. If school WANTS to allow the wear of scarf, it should be able to do that too.

Private schools can allow it. Private schools are traditionally religious in France, and almost entirely catholic. two Muslim private schools have come to existence recently though, and it is very likely that much more of them appear, now that the headscarf ban is in place.

It is a dress code for public schools, and only them

	29-08-2004 23:37									#78
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Spiffor, yes. I meant private schools. Public schools should be run by what is the general opinion. Private school have their own freedoms for owning it, and they should run it like they want. However, public schools are not private property, thus I basically agree.

	29-08-2004 23:39									#79
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quote: Azazel, no, because the law would be stupid. If that would be the law, I wouldn't live in that country. You can always move.

That's no solution. By moving, a person loses the majority of their life. It's no solution. It's like the libertarians saying "Hey, you always have a choice, you can starve to death!".

	29-08-2004 23:47									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Smiley, I disagree. I disagree with the method of fighting the terrorism. I think the only way we should fight terrorism is attacking terrorist in military level. It's not turning your back and saying it isn't there. It's keepign them out of the negotiating tables of any kind.

Military action is a short term solution. Long term requires attacking the mind, to replace religion with capitalism.

Spiffor raises a good point about the ban though: where do you set the line? Do you allow it in public schools, or do you ban it and drive some people to religious schools?

	29-08-2004 23:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ned, I'm still hoping for the day your worldview will depend on what actually happens in the world.

Spiffor, why I'm amazed. Can France actually stand up for what it believes, for once? I'd be impressed.

	30-08-2004 00:03									#82
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Now a neat thing to do would be for the French people to take the headscarf and turn it into a symbol of something else. Idealogical warfare at its finest.

	30-08-2004 00:09									#83
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Where in the Koran does it say women have to wear a veil?

Anyway, this is a stupid idea on France's part. Just like when they tried it in the 80s, the only result will be that naturally rebellious teens will start becomming more religious to "stick it to the man."

Remember, if you can't say "****" you can't say "**** you!" to the government.

	30-08-2004 00:53									#84
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A more intelligent one. Think about it. Israel has been using the exact same methods for the last 56 years, and yet they still face terrorism.

Huh?

Israel's approach to terrorism has sadly been far from stagnant and exactly the same.


During the 50s Israel sent commandos on retribal missions against Arab Fedayin (earlier word for Shahid. Less religious context). It worked 100% and Fedayin activity stopped.

In the 70s after plane kidnappings Israelis never gave in, and always engaged the terrorists. Plane Kidnappings stopped.

In the 70s, Israeli athletes were killed in Germany. Later, a bunch of PLO leaders were killed around Europe. Israelis abroad haven't been targetted since.


But in the early 90s comes the first problem-

Israel kills the leader of Hezbullah. Iran, Hebullahs creator, backer, sponsor and father is angry, and bombs the Israeli embassy in Argentine. Israel backs down.

Saddam Hussein sends rockets to Israel. Due to geopolitical pressure, Israel does not return fire.

A (later proved to be worthless) agreement is reach with the PLO lead Palestinian Authority, which promises to keep in check palestinian terrorism. It of course does no such thing, and since 1994, Hamas, PIJ, PFLP and DFLP use the suicide bomber in Israeli soil more and more, while Israel limits its reactions, believing Arafat will deliver. He rarely does.

Meanwhile Israel attempts to reach a status quo with Hezbullah, instead of finishing it off.

After failed attempts at Khaled Mash'al and the release of Sheich Yassin, Israel attempts to reach a status quo with Hamas.

In 2000, Israel unilaterally withdraws from Lebanon. Saving lives , but creating a security risk for the future, which now contains thousands of mid-range missiles courtesy of Syria and Iran.

In late 2000, the Palestinian police, intelligence and para-military organizations, which were supposed to prevent terror, begin a terrorist guerilla war against Israeli soldiers and citizens. Israel hardly responds by bombing empty buildings.

Later in 2002, a first Fatah martyr bomber arises. Younger Fatah terrorists begin to ally under the name "Al-Aqsa brigades".

Israel enters a status quo with Hamas PIJ and Al-Aqsa - for every terrorist attack there is an assassination, and for every assassination there is an attack.

In March 2002, Israel decides to change the formula. The IDF begins to use its strengths - fast paced high intensity combat, instead of being dragged to low paced low intensity combat where the terrorists win.

As of this point, the terrorist attacks begin to drastically climb down.

Israel also bgins building a fence which factually stops terrorists in their tracks.

In summer 2003, after a Hamas attack kills the already abused cease fire with Abu-Mazen, Israel begins an all out campaign against Hamas leaders, which quickly leads to an unexclaimed policy of restraint and fear by Hamas. The latest blows in 2004 bring Hamas down severely, operationally and politically.

Israel stops killing the leaders one by one, allowing them to regroup and regenerate, and instead goes on to kill them by large bunches, leaving gaping holes in the Hamas, PIJ and Al-Aqsa structures.


But this is just my view of things

	30-08-2004 01:04									#85
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What prompted the 1990s policy change?

	30-08-2004 01:25									#86
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In my view, Israel owes its survival as a nation for the last 35 years to one man.

Guess who he is?

	30-08-2004 01:51									#87
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Steven Seagal.

	30-08-2004 01:54									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi If these journalists are executed, what would you expect the French Government to do to get justice for their murdered citizens?

They would cut taxes for their richest people and use the extra money to fund a 200-billions war.

	30-08-2004 02:01									#89
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Shi, France would seek justice at the UN. They would pass a harsh resolution. Harsh, mind you. Then the French president can claim victory over mindless terror and French citizens can feel safe again.

	30-08-2004 02:04									#90
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Yeah Ned, what a ****ed up world we live in. France can't even guarantee the safety of its citizens wandering in a war zone 10,000km away from home.