03-09-2004 11:06									#451
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Why wasn't Saddam ever on the list of exporters of terrorism before 9/11? Or was he, and I just missed him with all the talk about Lybia, Syria, and Iran?

	03-09-2004 11:09									#452
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I think Iraq was on the list, just on a lower tier than Syria and Iran. They definitely should've been.

	03-09-2004 11:09									#453
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quote: I don't want European support if I have to kiss up to get it.

I think this applies more for Europe. They don't want American support for whatever if they have to kiss up to Bush's policies in order to get it.

quote: You have to look at this from Bush's POV, he's convinced this is a world war and too many people still aren't taking it seriously enough.

So we have to look at a deluded man's POV? The reason Europe isn't so into this is because they've been dealing with terrorism for years, so when there is a world wide 'war' on terrorism declared it's kind of silly to them. Of course it's just a war against Muslim terrorists. You don't see Bush sending troops to Basque areas in Spain or even warn the IRA to not try to that type of tactic again.

	03-09-2004 11:12									#454
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Yeah.. I'm the forever complainer about Europe etc, and how it is sometimes wrongly accused, as it is not really one big place.. well it is, but the opinions are diverse, we got them all just like you, we have kmany countries, no common policies or deals etc.

	03-09-2004 11:23									#455
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I don't know if it would matter to Europeans or even to US politicians, but the US really screwed the Iraqi people near the end of the first gulf war and fell asleep after our proxy war in Afghanistan. Even if there was no war on terrorism, removing Saddam and the Taliban tries to correct past wrongs.

	03-09-2004 11:29									#456
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quote: The reason Europe isn't so into this is because they've been dealing with terrorism for years, so when there is a world wide 'war' on terrorism declared it's kind of silly to them.

No longer than the US. The European point of view is they can not be bothered doing something that acutally solves the problem. And Europe is a misnomer, becaues we really mean France and Germany. Even the troops that they have commited to Afgahnistan is pitiful, maybe a thousand each. They are fully capable of doing so much more, not even related to Iraq.

	03-09-2004 11:32									#457
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Us not removing Saddam was not our idea. We were playign the the multilateralism at that time and a decade after, still provided 90% of the funding and troops and got no where.

UN and major European powers have proved one thing in the last ten years, and that is they are either not willing or capable of doing anything relevent. Hell even 90% of the firepower in Kosovo was US, and that was IN EUROPE!!!

	03-09-2004 11:32									#458
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quote: So we have to look at a deluded man's POV?

Yes, just as I want to look at the POV of Osama bin Laden. If you piss someone off it would be smart to find out how...

quote: The reason Europe isn't so into this is because they've been dealing with terrorism for years, so when there is a world wide 'war' on terrorism declared it's kind of silly to them. Of course it's just a war against Muslim terrorists. You don't see Bush sending troops to Basque areas in Spain or even warn the IRA to not try to that type of tactic again.

Those aren't global threats, they are regional and the states representing those regions don't want US troops in their countries to suppress the resistance. If some European nations don't see this as a special threat that requires a swift and effective reaction, then I think they're the ones who are deluded.

	03-09-2004 11:39									#459
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Aw hell, I don't know what to think, or I have too much to think. I'm in Kerry mode whenever deciding if I should climb down off the fence.

	03-09-2004 12:33									#460
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For me, D1ck Cheney sealed the deal...


for me to vote for Kerry.

His speech was the most warmongering speech I have ever heard in my life. It made me angry.

This guy has a one track mind and has done nothing but promote war for his entire career. Alot of people give Regean bad marks for the activities in Central and South America.

Who was the guy pushing alot of that? Cheney.

Cheney.

He is the leader of this organsization and can only offer us two things:

1) Unilateralism
2) War

Great options.

	03-09-2004 13:02									#461
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Overall this was a weak convention.

The Republicans didn't address any of the criticisms that have been made of them, they just kept reciting the same old tired lines that they always do.

	03-09-2004 13:07									#462
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quote: Overall this was a weak convention.

You're crazy, playa. Bush and Co. have this thing wrapped up. Running Kerry against these guys is like putting some punk off the street up against the Striker Warriors. Suicide...

	03-09-2004 13:10									#463
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Why you need Striker Warriors when you got SC.. well, either way, the punk is history.

Drake, why don't we make a bet... you're so sure for Bush victory.. if Kerry wins.. you will make 200 Supercitizen business cards and give them to people you don't know in the streets until you have ran out of the cards?

	03-09-2004 13:15									#464
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I'm not opposed to a bet, but I ain't making no business cards. What a pain in the ass...

	03-09-2004 13:18									#465
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Well if you don't do that, then how about streaking? You can choose to place and time, but it has to be over 100 meter run somewhere and back, and there has to be at least few strangers to see you do that.

	03-09-2004 13:19									#466
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Well, if you really want me to do something that I do freely anyway after enough beers...

	03-09-2004 13:25									#467
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Videotape it.

	03-09-2004 13:25									#468
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You gonna buy the camcorder?

	03-09-2004 13:27									#469
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OK, so what do you propose to do then?

	03-09-2004 13:30									#470
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I'm not really a betting man. Why don't you think of something and get back to me?

	03-09-2004 13:33									#471
	Remove this text

OK Drake, then how about this: Wear women's underwear for one day? It can be under your regular clothes.

	03-09-2004 13:34									#472
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I do that every day...

	03-09-2004 13:41									#473
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Looks like you are dodging........... well.. are you? dodging?

	03-09-2004 13:42									#474
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quote: No longer than the US. The European point of view is they can not be bothered doing something that acutally solves the problem. And Europe is a misnomer, becaues we really mean France and Germany.

Yes longer. I think the Brits have dealt with the IRA and the Spanish with the Basques well before the US has dealt with it. And no, I mean Europe, because a great majority of Brits also oppose the war and Blair is in serious trouble because of it.

quote: Yes, just as I want to look at the POV of Osama bin Laden.

And do you think Osama's POV excuses his actions as well?

quote: Those aren't global threats

But no less of a threat. The IRA for generations killed plenty and came very close to killing a PM or two. For all the posturing, Blair is leading a populace which was distinctly against him in going to war.

quote: If some European nations don't see this as a special threat that requires a swift and effective reaction, then I think they're the ones who are deluded.

They do... they supported Afghanistan. Iraq, OTOH, has no link to AQ. Bush should have tried selling it on humanitarian grounds instead of his BS WMD claim. I mean we had Saddam caged and he could nothing against us. They saw through the reason we gave pretty quickly.

	03-09-2004 13:54									#475
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quote: And do you think Osama's POV excuses his actions as well?

Murdering the innocent can never be excused. But I still want to understand the motivations involved - it's called learning from history. I'd like to be able to avoid a repeat of this down the line so analysing what happened and why matters...

quote: But no less of a threat. The IRA for generations killed plenty and came very close to killing a PM or two.

That's the Brit's problem, a global war on terror is a war on terrorists who are not fighting against their own government but against a broad array of people spanning multiple nations.

quote: For all the posturing, Blair is leading a populace which was distinctly against him in going to war.

Then they should vote him out.

quote: They do... they supported Afghanistan. Iraq, OTOH, has no link to AQ. Bush should have tried selling it on humanitarian grounds instead of his BS WMD claim. I mean we had Saddam caged and he could nothing against us. They saw through the reason we gave pretty quickly.

Then they should have agreed just on humanitarian grounds. But Bush was not alone in believing these weapons existed, several major countries believed Saddam had them, including Kerry.

	03-09-2004 14:10									#476
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quote: But I still want to understand the motivations involved

Understanding the motivations and using them to excuse behavior are two different things. It seems like you want to excuse Bush's your with us or against us crap because of his underlying motivations for it. Who cares if he thinks this is his world war? He doesn't get away with anything because of it.

quote: a global war on terror is a war on terrorists who are not fighting against their own government but against a broad array of people spanning multiple nations.

That's nice, but what does that have to do with Iraq, which is really what all the hubbub is about. Afghanistan? No one made a contrary peep about.

quote: Then they should vote him out.

Parliamentary systems... tougher to simply vote the PM out. Though Labor is in trouble (never though I'd see the Conservatives with a chance within 20 years after Blair first took over).

quote: Bush was not alone in believing these weapons existed, several major countries believed Saddam had them, including Kerry.

There is evidence that the administration pumped up the reports and told intelligence to look for reasons to do what they wanted to do. They didn't use the intelligence to make a decision, they made the decision and then wanted the intelligence to back it up.

And once again, say he did, what does it have to with AQ and OBL?

	03-09-2004 14:18									#477
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quote: Kerry Criticizes Cheney for Avoiding Vietnam War Thu Sep 2, 8:31 PM ET By Patricia Wilson NANTUCKET, Mass. (Reuters) - Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) hit back at Dick Cheney (news - web sites) on Thursday by raising the Republican's failure to serve in the Vietnam War and asking voters to weigh his two tours of duty against the vice president's five deferments. Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, bristled at Cheney's attack on his patriotism during the Republican National Convention in New York and his ability to serve as U.S. commander-in-chief. "Here's my answer," the Massachusetts senator said in excerpts of remarks he will make at a midnight rally in Springfield, Ohio, shortly after President Bush (news - web sites) delivers his acceptance speech at the Republican convention. "I'm not going to have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have and by those who have misled the nation into Iraq (news - web sites)," he said. Neither Bush, who served in the Texas Air national Guard, nor Cheney went to Vietnam. The vice president obtained five deferments and has since said he had "other priorities" at the time. Kerry volunteered for two tours of duty and won three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star while serving on a gunboat in the Mekong Delta. Kerry's political campaign has heavily emphasized his Vietnam record, but his critics say he served only four months in the country. They say he hardly discusses his record during 20 years in the U.S. Senate. Kerry's decorations -- and his subsequent activism against the Vietnam war -- have been questioned in television ads by a group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The Bush campaign has denied any connection with the organization. Cheney launched a withering attack on Kerry on Wednesday night at the convention, saying he had a "habit of indecision" that would jeopardize national security, that he failed to grasp the dangers of terrorism, refused to support U.S. troops on the battlefield in Iraq and voted outside the mainstream during his 20 years in the Senate. "John Kerry says he sees two Americas," Cheney said, playing off the Democrat's contention that there is one America for the rich and another for everybody else. "It makes the whole thing mutual: America sees two John Kerrys." Advisers have been urging Kerry, who has lost ground against Bush in recent polls, to show a more combative side. "We all saw the anger and distortion of the Republican Convention," Kerry said. "The vice president even called me unfit for office last night. I guess I'll leave it up to the voters whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of duty." Kerry and his vice presidential running mate John Edwards (news - web sites) will kick off the final two months before the Nov. 2 election in the critical battleground state of Ohio where recent polls give Bush a narrow lead. No Republican has ever won the White House without a victory in Ohio.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto..._dc_3&printer=1

You know, this just gives us permission to keep whacking him on VietNam.

	03-09-2004 14:21									#478
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quote: Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain

...and this popped up when I hit the submit button.

	03-09-2004 15:29									#479
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Imran -

quote: Understanding the motivations and using them to excuse behavior are two different things. It seems like you want to excuse Bush's your with us or against us crap because of his underlying motivations for it. Who cares if he thinks this is his world war? He doesn't get away with anything because of it.

Weren't we (or was it just me ) talking about Osama's motives? Where did I say anything about Bush's comment? I fear it's our world war... US leaders won't do what is needed to make peace, they'd rather condemn us to decades of terrorism than admit to what they've been doing to provoke acts of terrorism and apologise.

quote: That's nice, but what does that have to do with Iraq, which is really what all the hubbub is about. Afghanistan? No one made a contrary peep about.

The fear of what might happen if he ever got nukes. I don't think he was crazy enough to try something but I'm willing to acknowledge a valid difference of opinion on that. Then there's all the other reasons, like liberating people we screwed a decade earlier.

quote: Parliamentary systems... tougher to simply vote the PM out.

Yes Imran, I know Votes are how it's done nonetheless.

quote: There is evidence that the administration pumped up the reports and told intelligence to look for reasons to do what they wanted to do. They didn't use the intelligence to make a decision, they made the decision and then wanted the intelligence to back it up.

Does this negate the information these other countries had?

quote: And once again, say he did, what does it have to with AQ and OBL?

Killing 2 birds with one stone - remove Saddam and create a magnet for terrorists so we can fight them easier. Invade Iraq - Brilliant!

	03-09-2004 17:28									#480
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto..._dc_3&printer=1 You know, this just gives us permission to keep whacking him on VietNam.

Yay!! More fun!!