03-09-2004 17:35									#481
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Us not removing Saddam was not our idea. We were playign the the multilateralism at that time and a decade after, still provided 90% of the funding and troops and got no where. UN and major European powers have proved one thing in the last ten years, and that is they are either not willing or capable of doing anything relevent. Hell even 90% of the firepower in Kosovo was US, and that was IN EUROPE!!!

The first Bush administration correctly surmissed that removing Saddam would involve the US is a long process which might in the end undermine our interests in the gulf region. That is why poppa didn;t keep going.

Pappa was right.

	03-09-2004 17:38									#482
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I think David Brooks actually said something lucid when Lehrer was asking questions at the end of the convention:

Lehrer asked that if someone with no preconceptions or foreknowledge were to have watched the two conventions, would he have gotten a good sense of the difference between the two parties- and Brooks said he would have gotten a sense of two different realities for the people in each convention.

I agree wholeheartedly. People in Boston and in MSG have too totally different ideas of what ther world is like today, and hence what needs to be done.

I for one don;t buy for a microsecond that Islamist terrorism is an existential threat to the US. Not for a second. Hence this existence of fear in which we must strike out now has no resonance for me, none at all.

	03-09-2004 17:43									#483
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto..._dc_3&printer=1 You know, this just gives us permission to keep whacking him on VietNam.

That's not a bright move on Kerry's part.

Firstly he begs the question: How do you feel about President Clinton, who actively dodged the draft rather than simply applying for perfectly legal educational and family deferments?

Secondly what the hell is the Presidential Candidate doing muddying his hands with the Vice Presidential Candidate from the opposing party? I thought Edwards was a charismatic trial lawyer, let him kick Cheney in the crotch for a while, smiling the whole time.

	03-09-2004 17:46									#484
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think David Brooks actually said something lucid when Lehrer was asking questions at the end of the convention: Lehrer asked that if someone with no preconceptions or foreknowledge were to have watched the two conventions, would he have gotten a good sense of the difference between the two parties- and Brooks said he would have gotten a sense of two different realities for the people in each convention. I agree wholeheartedly. People in Boston and in MSG have too totally different ideas of what ther world is like today, and hence what needs to be done. I for one don;t buy for a microsecond that Islamist terrorism is an existential threat to the US. Not for a second. Hence this existence of fear in which we must strike out now has no resonance for me, none at all.

True enough for what it's worth, but there are very few existential threats to the United States that don't involve comets.

	03-09-2004 17:46									#485
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Did anyone notice that Bush claimed the US had brought democracy to Nicaragua?

I nearly fell off my chair when he said that.

	03-09-2004 17:51									#486
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You raise a good point G, regarding presence of clear and present danger.

OTOH, given all the other dragons have been slain, the only remaining boogeyman is Islamist fanatics, which we ignored previously in favor of concetrating on our first priority elimination/containmnet of communism mainly the USSR.

It is within this backdrop tho' that 9/11 is a central point for the repubs in order to remind people that communism never found a means to bring death and destruction to US soil but Islamic fanatics did.

I wonder why the feeling is waning that Islamic fanaticism poses any less a threat today.

	03-09-2004 17:59									#487
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Did anyone notice that Bush claimed the US had brought democracy to Nicaragua? I nearly fell off my chair when he said that.

I saw that and shook my head. Apparently internationally certified free elections in 1984 don't count.

	03-09-2004 18:02									#488
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What I can't believe is that as bad a president as Bush has been domestically this contest is going to be close.

	03-09-2004 18:06									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You raise a good point G, regarding presence of clear and present danger. OTOH, given all the other dragons have been slain, the only remaining boogeyman is Islamist fanatics, which we ignored previously in favor of concetrating on our first priority elimination/containmnet of communism mainly the USSR. It is within this backdrop tho' that 9/11 is a central point for the repubs in order to remind people that communism never found a means to bring death and destruction to US soil but Islamic fanatics did. I wonder why the feeling is waning that Islamic fanaticism poses any less a threat today.

Well, for one, supposedly thanks to the greatactions of our president we are a lot safer, NO?

2. Just as the capabilities of state actors to inflict damage increases, so do the cabalities of non-state entities to do so grows as well. But the fundemantals of how we will have to deal with them do not- and just becuase their capabilities have gone up does not make them fundamentally new or different.

If the communist did not hit us at home, it was a simple reality of their interests not being helped by that.

	03-09-2004 18:07									#490
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why wasn't Saddam ever on the list of exporters of terrorism before 9/11? Or was he, and I just missed him with all the talk about Lybia, Syria, and Iran?

He might have been. Considering, however, that all Iraq did was give payments to the families of suicide bombers after the fact after the Israelis bulldozed their houses. Not exactly providiing funds or support for terrorists. Also, Abu Nidal lived in Bagdad for quite some time, but AFAIK, he hadn't been up to anything while he was there. They did have some contacts with Al Qaeda, but the U.S. intelligence says that never amounted to anything.

	03-09-2004 18:13									#491
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander How do you feel about President Clinton, who actively dodged the draft rather than simply applying for perfectly legal educational and family deferments?

IIRC, Clinton had an education deferment. You can't dodge and then come back to the U.S. It's not like Clinton was in exile until Carter pardoned him.

	03-09-2004 18:52									#492
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara all Iraq did was give payments to the families of suicide bombers

Simply unbelievable...

	03-09-2004 18:56									#493
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH What I can't believe is that as bad a president as Bush has been domestically this contest is going to be close.

Domestic problems haven't been his doing. Why on earth do people still asscociate how well an economy is doing to the President. The President can only recommend. The legislature (Dems & Reps) is the one who holds the economic card.

	03-09-2004 19:47									#494
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quote: Domestic problems haven't been his doing. Why on earth do people still asscociate how well an economy is doing to the President.

Because the government sets the rules by which the market operates, and sets the amount and the distribution of our non-market spending on public goods.

While in a decentralized economy the boom/bust cycle is beyond the control of the government, a wise government can enact polices that mitigate the effects of market irrationality.

Bush is a failure because all right wing fundamentalists are failures in this regard: they do not understand that state spending can be a source of increased efficiency in many areas of the economy (although not all).

	03-09-2004 20:50									#495
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH What I can't believe is that as bad a president as Bush has been domestically this contest is going to be close.

Blame the Democrats for chosing a bad candidate. They also have to contend with the fact we've never turned out a war time President.

	03-09-2004 21:16									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Bush is a failure because all right wing fundamentalists are failures in this regard: they do not understand that state spending can be a source of increased efficiency in many areas of the economy (although not all).

What do you want him to spend money on? Remember of course, he can't endorse a check. Congress controls the money. If Democrats feel Bush has failed, they're ignoring the fact that their Democratic Party representatives (Sentate & House) have failed. Bush needs some of their votes.

	03-09-2004 21:19									#497
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon they do not understand that state spending can be a source of increased efficiency in many areas of the economy (although not all).

He said "state spending" and "increased efficiency" in the same sentence and meant it.

	04-09-2004 04:02									#498
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Of those I've read, this is my favorite editorial about the Republican Convention:

Consistently Inconsistent
Los Angeles Times
September 3, 2004


"I am running for president with a clear and positive plan to build a safer world and a more hopeful America," President Bush said Thursday night. His well-written speech would have been more convincing if he had not actually been president for the last four years.

In 2000, George W. Bush ran for president promising a "humble" foreign policy and warning against ambitions to remake other countries, let alone the world.

On domestic concerns, Bush '04 does sound a lot like Bush '00. The contrast is with what Bush actually did, or didn't do, in the years between. He also sounded a lot like a Democrat. "I am running with a compassionate conservative philosophy," he said, using a term we heard a lot four years ago and not much since, until this week. "Government should help people improve their lives," Bush said, promising to "transform" health insurance, pension plans and worker training, among other things.

Consistency is an undervalued virtue in our political culture: consistency between what you said before and what you say now, between what you say and what you do, between what you say and the truth, even what you say from one sentence to the next. The praise and prizes these days go to skilled self-reinvention for the needs of the moment, also known as spin.

Democrats do it, but Republicans do it better. One night GOP speakers are attack dogs, the next night they're kinder and gentler. Their platform feeds raw meat to the hard right, while their moderates take the stage and fan out to TV interviews, reassuring swing voters that they don't really mean it. Was Franklin D. Roosevelt a Republican? You might think so, given how often his name was invoked. Well, whatever.

The convention's lowest moment may have been New York Gov. George E. Pataki's suggestion that the Clinton administration is to blame for 9/11 because it ignored the evidence and ducked the fight against terrorism. We don't recall Pataki or Bush warning of this danger, if it was so obvious.

Sen. Zell Miller's vile keynote address will be cherished forever by connoisseurs of live-for-the-moment rhetoric. It was, of course, full of technically true lies (John Kerry, as senator, voted to kill various weapons systems; the same ones that Dick Cheney, as secretary of Defense, also tried to kill, and so on). But the speech reached its transcendent moment when this Democratic senator stood before thousands of Republicans baying for the defeat of a Vietnam War veteran by a man who chose to defend Texas instead, after weeks in which attacks by Republicans on Kerry's Vietnam service dominated the news. Miller praised "the American soldier." He condemned those who would allow national security to become an issue in "partisan politics." And Madison Square Garden cheered because he was referring to the Democrats! We guess you had to be there.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printed...la-news-comment

	04-09-2004 04:34									#499
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb He said "state spending" and "increased efficiency" in the same sentence and meant it.

State spending increases demand for goods and services. Increased demand utilizes resources that were not previously utilized.

	04-09-2004 06:39									#500
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious State spending increases demand for goods and services. Increased demand utilizes resources that were not previously utilized.

Kid, I'm sure you meant State "deficit" spending. The State spending current revenues actually stimulates the demand for goods and services less than if the money had been left in the private sector. Deficit spending does indeed increase that demand as it is adding money to the economy that would otherwise not be there at all.

	04-09-2004 06:51									#501
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Die thread!

	04-09-2004 06:57									#502
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I have crossed the threshold.

	04-09-2004 08:30									#503
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

...with DinoDoc...

	04-09-2004 08:31									#504
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He's my new *****.

	04-09-2004 08:32									#505
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God bless you two. May you have a happy life together.

	04-09-2004 08:35									#506
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I'm just glad we'll never be able to get married. It cuts down on the BS when I dump him.

	05-09-2004 23:30									#508
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb He said "state spending" and "increased efficiency" in the same sentence and meant it.

America is the country where healthcare spending by % of GDP is the highest, but yet the accessibility and quality of the services is not even in the top 10.

	05-09-2004 23:44									#509
	Re: Best editorial Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by AnnC In 2000, George W. Bush ran for president promising a "humble" foreign policy and warning against ambitions to remake other countries, let alone the world.

I think a president has the right to change his mind when such a dramatic event like 9-11 occurs. Before 9-11, a humble foreign policy seemed appropriate. After 9-11, it was not. The world changed. When the world changes, your foreign policy has to change too to match. What was Bush suppose to do, say "My fellow Americans, the humble foreign policy I promised is not appropriate anymore because of the events of 9-11, but I'll keep that flawed policy anyway because I promised"?

	06-09-2004 00:00									#510
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As I recall, Bush started his term by making moves to become more open and friendly with Mexico.