03-09-2004 09:59									#421
	Increase Your PM Length

Well I spent the last four evenings listening to every major speech at the RNC, and I can summarize the message of the convention in two sentences: Be afraid. Unless you elect George Bush, your grandchildren will not be safe from terrorism.

	03-09-2004 10:03									#422
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The two messages.

RNC: fear
DNC: hope

Hmmmm, think the Repugs might have blown it?

	03-09-2004 10:10									#423
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

THis is my problem also with the terrorism speech:

Basically.

Bush:"We have done a great job. We have brought freedom and liberty to people. We keep doing that, and people who hope for freedom will be heard. People in Iraq are free. People in A-stan are free. Women in A-stan are free".

Ok, got that. Now, what are you going to do about it? He said nothing. Meaning, he will keep going on like this.

kerry:"The war on terrorism can be handled better. The administration says they're doing the best that can be done, America is doing good and best. I say American can do better. I will double the size of spec ops, who make the decent kills of high value targets. I will also strengthen the coalition, to share the burden".

Now. The difference is, Kerry says WHAT he is going to do. Bush says, that Kerry is saying the coalition countries are a joke. He didn't say that. He said he can make a better coalition than Bush. Bush said, that Kerry doesn't really support the troops, denying and supporting for budgets and flip flopping. Kerry says Bush is the one who fights with too little men and doesn't give enough support to the troops.

Now, while these are under debate, the fact is, Bush is not promising anything about the future, or saying what will be done about the war ont errorism, yet he rides with this theme. Kerry actually says what he is goin gto do. Also, bush pretty much says this coalition is the mighty coalition, and isn't getting any bigger.

Your thoughts?

	03-09-2004 10:11									#424
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara: Hmmmm, think the Repugs might have blown it?

Yes, they probably have.

Early polling (ARG) indicates that Bush managed only to pull even with Kerry during the convention, 45% to 46%. And given that the incumbent loses 4 points on average between his convention and the election, Bush emerges from this convention in a rather weak position.

	03-09-2004 10:15									#425
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm conflicted.. I felt Kerry had an awesome speech, excellent. But then he kind of faded. He isn't beating the drums here. Bush started beating drums, did a great job at it. Now is his time to slamdunk, and IMO he fails miserably, basically not saying anything at all in a long speech. And now it's tied it seems like.

Well, whoever wins, it'll be tight and exciting to follow.

Arnold 2008!!!!
He might even do good.

Or McCain I'd vote for that guy. I saw his speech. He impressed me. McCain, Why isn't he running?

	03-09-2004 10:15									#426
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Best line - In response to Kerry's "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it" and his clarification "it's complicated", Bush said "Supporting our troops is not complicated".

	03-09-2004 10:17									#427
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Berz, I felt that was also bad move. Is Bush supportiung the troops? It's not complicated, there are too few troops to be able to do their job. They need more support. It's not complicated.

	03-09-2004 10:18									#428
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I thought it was a devastating speech, Kerry got ripped apart. I think we'll see a big bump out of this.

	03-09-2004 10:21									#429
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yeah, but is he supposed to rip Kerry apart, or is he supposed to talk about the REAL issues, and what he will do when he gets re-elected, especially about the terrorism, since well.. it is his main theme? Devastating dodging of real issues I'd say.

	03-09-2004 10:21									#430
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Berz, I felt that was also bad move. Is Bush supportiung the troops? It's not complicated, there are too few troops to be able to do their job. They need more support. It's not complicated.

And voting for the $87 billion before voting against it was one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard from a politician and that ain't no small feat.

Someone stick a fork in Kerry, he's done...

	03-09-2004 10:23									#431
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

DNC: We are boring, but we have great hair.
RNC: We actually care enough to use emotion.

Given normal apolyton to reality conversion factors, the at large public will love the RNC message.

Kerry's respose was pathetic. Ah, reform the tax code, thats a good idea. So good I will say the EXACT same thing in my "I am shitting my pants" midnight rebuttal.

quote: will double the size of spec ops, who make the decent kills of high value targets

Kerry says while Bush already has Of course your hero worship of SpecOps is unfounded. They get the "glamor" jobs while the real work of defending ground, humanitarian work, civil construction and the majority of combat fall to the paltry "regulars". Awesome troop support Pekka, not even Kerry is stupid enough to put it that way.

quote: I will also strengthen the coalition, to share the burden

Good hair goes a long way, but not that far. Kerry's Iraq policy is NO different than Bush's, so unless the countries opposed to Iraq are just doing it out of semantics then he will have no more success.

	03-09-2004 10:24									#432
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Yeah, but is he supposed to rip Kerry apart, or is he supposed to talk about the REAL issues, and what he will do when he gets re-elected, especially about the terrorism, since well.. it is his main theme? Devastating dodging of real issues I'd say.

Sorry, but to alot of Americans, the war on terrorism is the REAL issue.

	03-09-2004 10:27									#433
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Given normal apolyton to reality conversion factors, the at large public will love the RNC message. Kerry's respose was pathetic. Ah, reform the tax code, thats a good idea. So good I will say the EXACT same thing in my "I am shitting my pants" midnight rebuttal.

But he did hit back so there is still life I guess, but the Bushies like their meat rare.

	03-09-2004 10:28									#434
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You know I get tired of telling you guys this, but the military is not to streched. We are using only 20% of our combat forces. The problem is we are fighting a war withough being on a war footing, and we can't utilize the rest without that realization.

We are fighting a major global war and the daily routine of the average American has not changed a bit. And Americans would rather it be that way.

	03-09-2004 10:30									#435
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Berz, oh don't be sorry. I said he didn't say how he will continue to fight it. Saying lot of words without content is not saying how he will do it.

Patrokolos, oh yeah, but the "regular" force of however big it is can't ever get the top players. That's just the way it is. Do you honestly see, that Bush shouldn't suck up and seek wider support? Do you honestly believe, that the war on terrorism is going as good as it can right now? I see a lot of things we should be attacking right now that are left to be.

"Good hair goes a long way, but not that far. Kerry's Iraq policy is NO different than Bush's, so unless the countries opposed to Iraq are just doing it out of semantics then he will have no more success."

BUsh can't handle European negotiators. Europeans don't like Bush and that's the problem. Because Rumsfeld has said things like Old Europe and New EUrope. Do you realize this is the biggest insult Europe has yet to get for maybe decades? While you think it's 'right on the button' and 'witty', most of us feel like it's them fighting words.

Now, Bush can't do top level diplomacy, that's just a fact. Can Kerry do it? No one knwos yet, but a lot of Europe has already gained interest to try talking to him. Why? Because while they like the US, they don't like Bush.

The fact is, Iraq is going into shitters if there won't be a lot more troops ASAP. There won't be any democracy, and it will fall, unless there would be way more troops. TO do this, you need to a)send more troops or/and b) strengthen coalition.

	03-09-2004 10:30									#436
	Tired of ads?

Was it just me but when talking about Iraq, did Bush dance around the issue that we never found any WMDs there?

	03-09-2004 10:34									#437
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Do you realize this is the biggest insult Europe has yet to get for maybe decades?

Pansies.

	03-09-2004 10:34									#438
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Would Kerry do a better job, I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe you should remember I already said earlier in this thread that I'm neutral about Bush, little negative about Kerry. As in, I might prefer Bush, but I wouldn't really root for either.

McCain

	03-09-2004 10:36									#439
	Support Apolyton

DD, you should watch Hooligans and Thugs; Footballs most violent fights. You would realize we are the ones who still have braveheart type of battles in most capitals hundreds of people goign 'WAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!' on both sides and running to each other, just like in braveheart It was a crazy video btw!

	03-09-2004 10:37									#440
	Support Apolyton

I think Kerry screwed up big time by swinging at the VP over service. He just opened the door to the Repubs to bring all the SBV schtick into the campaign proper.

Am I wrong?

	03-09-2004 10:37									#441
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: While you think it's 'right on the button' and 'witty', most of us feel like it's them fighting words.

Then better get in the fight because it's a ragin'

	03-09-2004 10:38									#442
	Increase Your PM Length

Just you.

Pecka: I don't want European support if I have to kiss up to get it. Multilateralism does not mean whoring yourself out to make people like you. If Europe doesn't want to get involved the fine. Europe and the UN were wrong not to go, and when this all setteles down in a decade and it becomes obvious it will be remembered that way.

Bush asked nicely, asked bluntly, and then told them to **** off. Just how it should have been. I don't think it is American diplomacy that failed but rather European. Not that we expected anything different from France, Germany was a suprise, but look who is running it right now.

	03-09-2004 10:39									#443
	Increase Your PM Length

Berz, then better look at the news. Euros are already in there. You think it's ok to insult like that? Well, yes or no, it still the worst display of diplomacy, proving they can't do it really well.

	03-09-2004 10:39									#444
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Am I wrong?

The Reporting for Duty line in Kerry's convention speech already did that.

	03-09-2004 10:43									#445
	Tired of ads?

"Pecka: I don't want European support if I have to kiss up to get it. Multilateralism does not mean whoring yourself out to make people like you."

This attitude won't get you any friends.

" If Europe doesn't want to get involved the fine."

Europe IS involved. And Europe has also gotten terrorist attacks. It's not US exclusive.

"Bush asked nicely, asked bluntly, and then told them to **** off."

Exactly. This is not good diplomacy.

" I don't think it is American diplomacy that failed but rather European."

There is NO common European policies. You are generalizing. I find it racist.

"Not that we expected anything different from France, Germany was a suprise, but look who is running it right now."

??

	03-09-2004 10:44									#446
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Am I wrong?

Yes, the Repubs risk angering vets by tearing open wounds from that war. The SBVT are on thin ice, many vets undoubtedly despise Kerry for what he did when he got back but they are inpugning the charachter of a lot of vets by attacking Kerry.

	03-09-2004 10:52									#447
	Support Apolyton

Pekka -

quote: Berz, then better look at the news. Euros are already in there. You think it's ok to insult like that? Well, yes or no, it still the worst display of diplomacy, proving they can't do it really well.

Rumsfeld ain't a diplomat, and aside from the Brits, the Euros ain't helping much. You have to look at this from Bush's POV, he's convinced this is a world war and too many people still aren't taking it seriously enough.

	03-09-2004 10:55									#448
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yeah. A big part of Europe does not see Iraq being part of war on terrorism.

	03-09-2004 11:02									#449
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Correct, which goes to the heart of defining the enemy. It isn't a group of terrorists, it's the systems that produce terrorists. Granted, the west has done quite alot to produce terrorists with it's foreign policy, but US politicians running for the White House ain't gonna tell us the truth about why we were attacked.

	03-09-2004 11:04									#450
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Berz, well.. I feel this issue shouldn't be argued.. I mean, this is another thread, plus this issue is like the most debated anyway. But yeah, I could agree with your definition more. Hey, you put it better than the president. Maybe you should run.

ANyway, no one should get their panties on a twist, if it was up to me, we would have 500 000 man in there tomorrow. From every country too. US can lead :kiss and make up: