06-09-2004 13:05									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Venezuelans love Chavez? That explains why Chavez must show his love in the form of gunning down civilians.

Your Argentinian mind is obviously unable to spot the difference between the object and subject of a verb.

	06-09-2004 13:05									#92
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Useless response. Foul ball.

You are spamming this forum beyond belief.

	06-09-2004 13:06									#93
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You criminal!

	06-09-2004 13:06									#94
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Your Argentinian mind is obviously unable to spot the difference between the object and subject of a verb.

There is nothing wrong with the statement I made. And don't be an ass because my english is quite decent.

	06-09-2004 13:06									#95
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Watch it, KH, he's firing up the helicopter as we speak...

	06-09-2004 13:15									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That must be why he has to have armed guards by the polling booths, eh? And why he needs to have international observation of his elections.

Let me speak very slowly: he has armed guards by the polling booths to prevent violence at the place of polling. If there had been as much violence leading up to an election in Canada as there was in Venezuela then there would be armed guards outside our polling stations too. In fact, I have no doubt that there will be armed guards at the polling booths for the US elections this fall. Need I remind you that the opposition tried to circumvent the democratic process very recently by staging a coup against a democratically elected leader? They are thugs, and will continue to be. Chavez has a clear mandate from his population. As for the international observers, they were there to forestall accusations of fraud from the o sore losers in the opposition. But I guess Chavez is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't? No international observers means that he was covering something up. International observers mean that people think he's a fraud, so he must be covering something up.

quote: of the sort willing to uprise in order to depose Chavez

The coup was strictly a coup, not a widespread revolt. Ten guys getting together and deciding that Chavez has to go hardly constitutes a mass movement.

quote: If they did, Chavez would not have to try to weasal out an election

No elected official wants to face a referendum against them. Chavez went through with it and won a clear victory. Deal with it. Venezuelans like him (at least 60% of them do)

quote: And BTW, do you think their referendum question is clearer than the one in Quebec? Someone who is loved by his people doesn't need to try to con them.

What is the point here? Is there a claim that the referendum question was unclear? If so, please be specific.

	06-09-2004 13:16									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo There is nothing wrong with the statement I made. And don't be an ass because my english is quite decent.

I never said anything about how Chavez feels about Venezuelans.

	06-09-2004 13:18									#98
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quote: Is there a claim that the referendum question was unclear? If so, please be specific.

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. The question was unclear.

	06-09-2004 13:20									#99
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It is very wordy, that is true and littered with useless phrases (like the mandate thing).

	06-09-2004 13:22									#100
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quote: Let me speak very slowly: he has armed guards by the polling booths to prevent violence at the place of polling. If there had been as much violence leading up to an election in Canada as there was in Venezuela then there would be armed guards outside our polling stations too.

quote: In fact, I have no doubt that there will be armed guards at the polling booths for the US elections this fall.

Now, are you willing to say that the American people love Dubya, if they need armed guards at the polling booths?

That's my point. To say that a leader is loved by his people does not mean that he is loved by those who support him, but that those who disagree with him, also hold him in high esteem.

This is the general standard to say that one is loved by one's peoples, all of them and not just some of them. Chavez may be loved by some Venezuelans, but he is not loved by the people of Venezuela, as these 'right elite' are still people, just as much as those who supported Chavez.

	06-09-2004 13:24									#101
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quote: The coup was strictly a coup, not a widespread revolt. Ten guys getting together and deciding that Chavez has to go hardly constitutes a mass movement.

So the coup was just ten people? If so, why does he dignify such a group with the term coup, and use the incident to tar all his foes?

	06-09-2004 13:30									#102
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umm... because "coup" is the correct term for such an action?

	06-09-2004 13:36									#103
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So if Bush had ten people call for his resignation, and attempt to charge the Whitehouse, that would be a coup?

I doubt that would merit any mention beyond, 'disturbance' as in a disturbance at the White house.

A coup must have a serious chance of seizing power.

	06-09-2004 13:38									#104
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They removed Chavez by force and named a replacement. How much more serious need it be??

	06-09-2004 13:42									#105
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Just ten people?

Something's not adding up here.

KH says that it was just ten people.

	06-09-2004 14:20									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So the coup was just ten people? If so, why does he dignify such a group with the term coup, and use the incident to tar all his foes?

Ten people with guns, my disingenuous friend.

	06-09-2004 14:21									#108
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That's why it was a coup and not a revolt or revolution.

	06-09-2004 14:22									#109
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I wish I could say I feel good having pwn3d Ben and Fez, but it's a hollow achievement.

	06-09-2004 14:32									#110
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It isn't good to claim credit where it isn't deserved. You didn't do anything of the sort.

	06-09-2004 14:40									#111
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This article is a must read for Ben and Fezzie.

	06-09-2004 14:41									#112
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I have no reason to doubt Chavez's win -- except that Jimmy Carter says there was no fraud and further because Chavez will not conduct even random audits to test whether there was something wrong with the voting machines.

	06-09-2004 14:41									#113
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Counterpunch? That's garbage when it comes to credibility. Totally uncorrobated.

My first post in this thread was that if they want to keep Chavez fine. They are idiots for that. They are signing their own doom. If their nation ends up in a civil war in a few years, they'll look back at their errors.

	06-09-2004 14:48									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Given the leftist bias of the Globe and Mail, that they would report any intimidation by Chavez is remarkable, and ought to be cited as evidence in favour.

The Globe is leftist? That's like saying Fox News is a bastion for communists.

	06-09-2004 14:51									#115
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And Ned arrives at the thread as well. Chavez sure brings them out of the woodwork!

	06-09-2004 14:52									#116
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Joncha, do you support that idiot Chavez?

	06-09-2004 14:57									#117
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Yes. He is far better than the alternative on offer in Venezuela, and miles above that idiot Uribe in Columbia.

	06-09-2004 14:59									#118
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Yes. He is far better than the alternative on offer in Venezuela, and miles above that idiot Uribe in Columbia.

You're such ignorant one. The opposition to Chavez is corrupt, but Chavez is super-corrupt. He single handedly collapsed the economy in a record amount of time. Alvaro Uribe did this:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiheral...nal/9539460.htm

You really should look at the facts. Uribe is a very intelligent man who helped his people in ways you commies couldn't even do if you tried.

"The $90 billion economy expanded by 4.25 percent from the year-earlier period after growing by a revised 4 percent in the first quarter, a government report showed.

Colombia has expanded at a pace of at least 4 percent for four straight quarters, the longest such streak since the government began releasing quarterly figures in 1995."

This is called a boom.

	06-09-2004 15:19									#119
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BK,

More information for you.

quote: As the August 15 referendum on whether Hugo Chavez should continue as president looms in Venezuela, anti-Chavez pollsters have begun reluctantly issuing polls showing Chavez in the lead. In June, the Washington-D.C. based polling firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research Inc.--working on behalf of the opposition--conducted a poll showing that 49 percent of Venezuela's registered voters would support President Chavez versus 44 percent that would vote to recall him. Another June poll by the Venezuelan firm DATOS--also commissioned by the opposition--gave Chavez 51 percent of support, against 39 percent who would vote against him. Recently Chavez challenged other Venezuelan polling firms aligned to the opposition to release the results of their latest polls. Venezuelan Information Minister Jesse Chacon has claimed to have copies of these polls--which favor Chavez--and has threatened to publish them if the polling firms do not come forward.

link

So it appears the alleged discrepancies between polls and the referendum result weren't there.

	06-09-2004 18:55									#120
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quote: Now Agathon says that the exit polls were banned, but to me that just adds to the pile of suspicion against Chavez.

Publication of exit polls was banned while the polls were still open, for obvious reasons. Even then, one managed to get published in the UK's Independent which said that Chavez was losing by a million votes. Drake Tungsten linked to it in the referendum thread.

Of course, that turned out to be false. The opposition had been publishing polls up until the referendum which claimed similar support. Western journalists on the ground in Venezuela were predicting a Chavez win nonetheless, and they were right.

In the case of Florida there is ample evidence that Bush lost, the simple expedient of actually counting the votes proves it. Add to that the widely reported electoral roll fraud and there is a good case.

But in Chavez case there is no evidence, apart from a couple of opinion pieces by people who could well be members of, or sympathetic to, the opposition.

Suck it up, you lost.