08-09-2004 00:28									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker *throws up*

yeah I kinda wish i hadn't read that either.

	08-09-2004 00:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark As you may be aware, in Judaism and Islam its not just a reminder, but a serious requirement of the religion. I know nothing about the lasting effects of branding, or whether its easier done in infancy than later, or whatever, since its not in fact the practice of any major civilizations. In the case of circumcision it IS the historic practice of two major world religions, and the principle advocates for banning it are people who are either Christian or of Christian background.

I'm neither of the last two. I don't believe religion is a reason to allow something that isn't allowed for others, which is why i believe religious acts that are cruel to animals should also be banned. I don't agree with indoctrination, or something that marks you out as a religion when you haven't chosen to belong to a religion, and I especially don't agree with mutilating someone's body without their consent.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The contrast with FGM should be clear - large numbers of those who had FGM as children want it banned - virtually no one who was circumcized for religious reasons wants it banned - there have to be reasons for this, and the fact has to be as relevant as abstract logical calculus.

Oh I agree, it's nowhere near as bad as that, that has lasting consequences. However it is still chopping bits of you off without your consent.

	08-09-2004 00:30									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo smoking something isn't morally wrong (although I have never taken a puff because I value my health) but whacking parts off of other peoples bodies without their consent is as morally wrong as anything can get. In one action you permanently violate their privacy (which everybody cares so much about), their freedom, their property, and their bodily integrity. There aren't many immoral things that do as thorough a job as that.

parents violate their childrens privacy all the time, in much more serious ways. Youre privileging something you call "bodily integrity" - which as far as I can tell is nothing more than a fetish of your particular culture.

	08-09-2004 00:30									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Chicks dig a circumcised unit. It looks much cleaner.

Depends on the chick.

	08-09-2004 00:31									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Are Brits really that unhygenic?

No. I'm sure some are, but most people I know shower regularly.

	08-09-2004 00:32									#66
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark but why is a harmless permanent change a "violation" or, astoundingly, a "rape" apart from a cultural bias, on behalf of a culture that does NOT perform such acts. As for pain, why not ban spanking, or brussel sprouts, or dozens of things parents impose on their kids?

It's not harmless. It's mutiliating their body, and causes pain. Spanking I don't agree with either. Brussel sprouts are evil, however do not cause perminant mutilation.

	08-09-2004 00:32									#67
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quote: smoking something isn't morally wrong (although I have never taken a puff because I value my health) but whacking parts off of other peoples bodies without their consent is as morally wrong as anything can get. In one action you permanently violate their privacy (which everybody cares so much about), their freedom, their property, and their bodily integrity. There aren't many immoral things that do as thorough a job as that.

Nah, its just that whenever someone starts jacking off about morality the bullshit alarm sounds loud and clear.

However, you fail to address my argument earlier, equating circumcision to parental right to bring up their child, not assault or abuse.

quote: Are Brits really that unhygenic?

Suffice that if you ever go to Northampton, avoid a gay bar called the Boston Clipper

	08-09-2004 00:33									#68
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I never told the doctors to remove my umbilical cord. Bastards

	08-09-2004 00:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I don't agree with indoctrination, or something that marks you out as a religion when you haven't chosen to belong to a religion, and I especially don't agree with mutilating someone's body without their consent.

But to Jews its not mutilation. This is the way we're MEANT to be, and to be kept the other way is unnatural. Its not right to keep your child the way he wasnt meant to be, even if its reversible later. Your definition of what is mutilation is culturally biased, being based on a definition of what is natural that excludes the possibility that certain religious traditions you dont share are true.

	08-09-2004 00:34									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Suffice that if you ever go to Northampton, avoid a gay bar called the Boston Clipper

I just avoid England.

	08-09-2004 00:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy So now parents have no right to teach their child their religion?

They're wlecome to teach them religion, but not to inscribe a perminant mark of that religion on them, before they've had a chance to choose for themselves.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy See above.

Your answer about morality doesn't answer

quote: What's the difference between having a religious symbol perminantly branded on you, or a part of your body cut off as a perminant religious symbol, regardless of whether it's abuse or not? Neither has lasting physical consequences. Both cause pain. Both are irreversable, barring a skin graft.

	08-09-2004 00:34									#72
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quote: It's not harmless. It's mutiliating their body, and causes pain. Spanking I don't agree with either. Brussel sprouts are evil, however do not cause perminant mutilation.

Have you ever witnessed a Jewish circumcision? Negligible pain is caused to the infant, incomparable to that of a ripped foreskin. I thought you did agree with spanking? Just as you once said that killing a child by its parents removing food was legitimate since it is the parents perogative.

	08-09-2004 00:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Have you ever witnessed a Jewish circumcision? Negligible pain is caused to the infant.

Is this a joke?

I've been to a Bris before, the baby's screams hurt my ear...it seemed very very cruel to me.

	08-09-2004 00:35									#74
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Most people that defend chopping penises are cut themselves. Tells you about something doesn't it . Because men with foreskin RARELY EVER want to get rid of it. Because we know something you don't.

They absolutely demand that uncut penises are dirty, which is weird, I guess they never heard of shower.

Why would you make your penis lesser, just because.. uhmm... nothing? The medical beneficies are SO marginal it's a joke.

It looks better? For some it does, for some it don't. Come here with a cut penis and you're the weirdo puke penis.
And that's stupid too. Because if someone says a cut penis or uncut penis, if you really think that the other is a lot uglier than the other, then you have a problem in the head and tells you something about you and nothing about the penis itself. Jeesh, it's only natural, the foreskin.

Besides, a huge penis is thought as good looking. Why don't you go get bigger penises? And anyone claiming they're hung like horse besides Ted Striker is a liar anyway.

	08-09-2004 00:35									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf I never told the doctors to remove my umbilical cord. Bastards

If that's to me, I did use the caveat of medical necessity, which I think works the other way round. It can be done unless you've said not to.

	08-09-2004 00:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark but why is a harmless permanent change a "violation" or, astoundingly, a "rape" apart from a cultural bias, on behalf of a culture that does NOT perform such acts. As for pain, why not ban spanking, or brussel sprouts, or dozens of things parents impose on their kids?

Lotm, castration is a harmless permanent change (eunichs of almost every mammal species including primates tend to live a bit longer than their intact brethern) but would not castration still constitute a violation? Just because something doesn't kill or disable you doesn't make it harmless.

As for the pain, thank god hospitals are starting to wake up to the need to use at least topical pain relief on kids when they do this. I really don't want to hear about it if circumcision in jewish communities doesnt make use of pain relief, I really would rather not know that. In any case pain passes, circumcision does not. It lasts even longer than life.

	08-09-2004 00:36									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Some do some don't. Seems to depend on where they are from.

I have taken an informal poll many times.

They overwhelmingly liked the cut unit.

	08-09-2004 00:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Most people that defend chopping penises are cut themselves. Tells you about something doesn't it . Because men with foreskin RARELY EVER want to get rid of it. Because we know something you don't.

	08-09-2004 00:37									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue It's not harmless. It's mutiliating their body, and causes pain. Spanking I don't agree with either. Brussel sprouts are evil, however do not cause perminant mutilation.

Its a permanent change, but its NOT mutilation, if the uncircumsized state isnt privileged as "natural". Therefore the objection is that it causes (temporary) pain. But parents are allowed to inflict temporary pain as part of parenting to achieve certain parenting objectives. Ergo its not the pain either. Somehow when the temporary pain is paired with a permanent change, this is transformed not only into abuse, but the least moral thing you could do.

	08-09-2004 00:39									#80
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Most medical reasons for it have gone away with modern hygiene and medical advances. Nowadays there's absolutely no good reason so it's wrong.

	08-09-2004 00:39									#81
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quote: They're wlecome to teach them religion, but not to inscribe a perminant mark of that religion on them, before they've had a chance to choose for themselves.

If it was forced upon a child with the ability to be self-determined, for sure it would not be a consistent action, however a baby is not. Furthermore, it is not an inscription since no changes to the childs body that remains after the operation has occured, merely a piece of skin removed.

quote: Your answer about morality doesn't answer

Nor was it meant to. I was suprised to see you resort to that which we have previously agreed is a fallacy in argument.

quote: What's the difference between having a religious symbol perminantly branded on you, or a part of your body cut off as a perminant religious symbol, regardless of whether it's abuse or not? Neither has lasting physical consequences. Both cause pain. Both are irreversable, barring a skin graft.

Expanded from my previous post...

Except that one is outweighed by functionality, the degree of show, and the fact that it is less conspicuous.... one is inflicted, another is simply a question of individual difference, like a birthmark, which the parent can change like an education where the child cannot determine itself.

	08-09-2004 00:39									#82
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But I'm not really fanatic about it. If you have a cut penis, I don't think any less of you. Good for you. IF you're happy with it, that's all that really counts. And it's yours, so you should be happy with it

penises

	08-09-2004 00:40									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Lotm, castration is a harmless permanent change (eunichs of almost every mammal species including primates tend to live a bit longer than their intact brethern) but would not castration still constitute a violation? Just because something doesn't kill or disable you doesn't make it harmless.

er cause it prevents you from having children? See also FGM. Circumcision has no effects like the above.

	08-09-2004 00:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark But to Jews its not mutilation. This is the way we're MEANT to be, and to be kept the other way is unnatural. Its not right to keep your child the way he wasnt meant to be, even if its reversible later. Your definition of what is mutilation is culturally biased, being based on a definition of what is natural that excludes the possibility that certain religious traditions you dont share are true.

No, my definition of what natural is without outside stimulus. Without intervention, a child would not be circumsized. I believe unless someone consents, it should not be allowed to be done. It's up to the person if they're religious: they should be left as they are until they decide if they are religious, and then follow any irreversable practices. That child shouldn't be indoctrinated into a religious unless that child decides it wants it.

Also, your argument could apply to female genital mutilation for religious reasons. That could be what's natural too, according to their religion.

That child isn't Jewish by choice yet. If he wants to be Jewish, he can choose to. If he doesn't, he should have to have a perminant reminder of it.

	08-09-2004 00:42									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka But I'm not really fanatic about it. If you have a cut penis, I don't think any less of you. Good for you. IF you're happy with it, that's all that really counts. And it's yours, so you should be happy with it penises

Mine is like a fine piece of art.

Da Vinci, Picasso, Michaelangelo, these are just some of the works that can be compared

	08-09-2004 00:42									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Most people that defend chopping penises are cut themselves. Tells you about something doesn't it . Because men with foreskin RARELY EVER want to get rid of it.

Among Jewish men who were born in the USSR adult circumcision was not uncommon. I doubt ANY of them thought positively about the Soviet laws that prevent them from being circumsized as infants.

	08-09-2004 00:42									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I have taken an informal poll many times. They overwhelmingly liked the cut unit.

You can't take a meaningful poll. Chicks don't want to tell you what you don't want to hear when it's something you could do nothing about. And Chicks learn to love whatever is attached to the man they love. They usually don't seem to be as shallow about this kind of thing as most guys are. Anyway if being cut meant a guy was more likely to get some then evolution would have easily removed the foreskin entirely by now.

	08-09-2004 00:42									#88
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark why not ban spanking

Er... we do. Physical abuse of children is physical abuse of children, and circumcision should certainly be part of it.

Hiding behind culture is all the more common for bigots and violent conservatives these days isn't it? "Homosexuality is not part of the Zimbabwean culture..." etc.

	08-09-2004 00:43									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I have taken an informal poll many times. They overwhelmingly liked the cut unit.

I've never been turned down for being intact. That argument smacks of blue-balled desperation.

	08-09-2004 00:43									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Have you ever witnessed a Jewish circumcision? Negligible pain is caused to the infant, incomparable to that of a ripped foreskin.

Yes, but comparable to having a part of your body removed with a scalpel, since that's what it is. Not exactly painless.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I thought you did agree with spanking?

No.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Just as you once said that killing a child by its parents removing food was legitimate since it is the parents perogative.

Wow, poisoning the well today aren't we?