08-09-2004 00:43									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I've never been turned down for being intact. That argument smacks of blue-balled desperation.

It smacks of humour to me.

	08-09-2004 00:43									#92
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Ted Striker:

quote: I've been to a Bris before, the baby's screams hurt my ear...it seemed very very cruel to me.

I've been to four (my brothers and my cousin). All were good as gold. Apparently so was I, except for urinating on the guy that was doing it .

quote: If that's to me, I did use the caveat of medical necessity, which I think works the other way round. It can be done unless you've said not to.

Not a medical necessity to remove it however. It will fall off of its own accord as a child may later decide to have himself circumsized but doctors will often remove the cord though.

quote: Lotm, castration is a harmless permanent change (eunichs of almost every mammal species including primates tend to live a bit longer than their intact brethern) but would not castration still constitute a violation? Just because something doesn't kill or disable you doesn't make it harmless.

Castration?

quote: Most medical reasons for it have gone away with modern hygiene and medical advances. Nowadays there's absolutely no good reason so it's wrong.

You say most implying that some remain, including the biggy of less risk of some STI's. However, there are other non-medical arguments that would not allow it to be rendered pointless.

	08-09-2004 00:44									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka But I'm not really fanatic about it. If you have a cut penis, I don't think any less of you. Good for you. IF you're happy with it, that's all that really counts. And it's yours, so you should be happy with it penises

What should they do if they are unhappy with their cut member? I guess maybe this is a serious issue after all.

	08-09-2004 00:45									#94
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Has anyone here ever been told he'll need to have surgery before the lady (or gentleman) making the request condescends to allow them in their knickers?

If that did occur, did you willing become their *****?

	08-09-2004 00:45									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue No, my definition of what natural is without outside stimulus. Without intervention, a child would not be circumsized.

The definition of natural as without outiside stimulus is culturally bound. Its "natural" to be parented, even from an Aristotelian point of view, and certainly from a Jewish and Muslim point of view. We extend parenting also to physical changes.

As for FGM, that is different because of real loss of significant functionality.

	08-09-2004 00:45									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo You can't take a meaningful poll. Chicks don't want to tell you what you don't want to hear when it's something you could do nothing about. And Chicks learn to love whatever is attached to the man they love. They usually don't seem to be as shallow about this kind of thing as most guys are. Anyway if being cut meant a guy was more likely to get some then evolution would have easily removed the foreskin entirely by now.

No, no


It has always been several girls at a time that I asked, and none that I was involved with. I didn't tell them if I was cut or not.

I simply asked them which they preferred.

Sorry guys but they like the cut unit, just in the same way they prefer you to trim your Bavarian forest. It just looks alot cleaner.

	08-09-2004 00:46									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy If it was forced upon a child with the ability to be self-determined, for sure it would not be a consistent action, however a baby is not. Furthermore, it is not an inscription since no changes to the childs body that remains after the operation has occured, merely a piece of skin removed.

A piece of skin that denotes the religion you were born into.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Except that one is outweighed by functionality, the degree of show, and the fact that it is less conspicuous.... one is inflicted, another is simply a question of individual difference, like a birthmark, which the parent can change like an education where the child cannot determine itself.

Functionality doesn't exist anymore, since people shower. Maybe in the 19th century you'd have a point. And it's just as conspicuous as some brandings, depending on where you put it. Say a branding of the penis, since that's closest.

	08-09-2004 00:47									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No, no It has always been several girls at a time that I asked, and none that I was involved with. I didn't tell them if I was cut or not. I simply asked them which they preferred. Sorry guys but they like the cut unit, just in the same way they prefer you to trim your Bavarian forest. It just looks alot cleaner.

They prefer what they're used to seeing. Girls (and gay guys) in Canada prefer uncut, since most people are uncut...

	08-09-2004 00:47									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I've never been turned down for being intact. That argument smacks of blue-balled desperation.

That's YOUR argument, a one you just made up not mine

I am simply stating what I have been told

	08-09-2004 00:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Wow, poisoning the well today aren't we?

I'll assume you dont know the historical background, but I wouldnt have used that phrase in this particular discussion.

	08-09-2004 00:47									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Sorry guys but they like the cut unit, just in the same way they prefer you to trim your Bavarian forest. It just looks alot cleaner.

Speak for yourself. I like women to look like women, not pubescent girls.

	08-09-2004 00:48									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Speak for yourself. I like women to look like women, not pubescent girls.

Me too.

	08-09-2004 00:48									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They prefer what they're used to seeing. Girls (and gay guys) in Canada prefer uncut, since most people are uncut...

Maybe, but I still think I'm right.

	08-09-2004 00:49									#104
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You guys are so 1970s, have fun with your dental floss and hairballs!!!!

	08-09-2004 00:49									#105
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its a permanent change, but its NOT mutilation, if the uncircumsized state isnt privileged as "natural".

Natural:

quote: [adj] in accordance with nature; relating to or concerning nature; "a very natural development"; "our natural environment"; "natural science"; "natural resources"; "natural cliffs"; "natural phenomena" [adj] existing in or produced by nature; not artificial or imitation;

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/natural

Not some culturally biased thing, natural is in accordance with nature, without artificial intervention. Circumcision is artificial intervention.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark But parents are allowed to inflict temporary pain as part of parenting to achieve certain parenting objectives.

Says who?

	08-09-2004 00:50									#106
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"Hello Doctor! I'd like a painful little operation of dubious medical value that will leave me with diminished sexual sensitivity for the rest of my life! The chicks really dig it! Yes, I have semen backed up as far as my throat. How did you guess?"

	08-09-2004 00:50									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Maybe, but I still think I'm right.

You always think you're right.

	08-09-2004 00:51									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy However, there are other non-medical arguments that would not allow it to be rendered pointless.

All which are a matter of opinion, of choice. That person should be the one to make the choice if it looks better or not, or if they prefer it. Not their parents.

	08-09-2004 00:52									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ted Striker: Castration?

You read me right. I assume you have the sense to at least recognize castration of a child would be immoral?

	08-09-2004 00:53									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp "Hello Doctor! I'd like a painful little operation of dubious medical value that will leave me with diminished sexual sensitivity for the rest of my life! The chicks really dig it! Yes, I have semen backed up as far as my throat. How did you guess?"

You seem to be taking this very personally.

	08-09-2004 00:54									#111
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I'll assume you dont know the historical background, but I wouldnt have used that phrase in this particular discussion.

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy of staying someone believes something nasty/cruel/silly in order to make their other opinions seem less valid.

Saying "didn't you believe this ...." is poisoning the well, as Whaleboy did.

	08-09-2004 00:55									#112
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The definition of natural as without outiside stimulus is culturally bound. Its "natural" to be parented, even from an Aristotelian point of view, and certainly from a Jewish and Muslim point of view. We extend parenting also to physical changes. As for FGM, that is different because of real loss of significant functionality.

Actually in most forms of FGM fertility is not impaired. More nerve endings are permenently destroyed in circumcison of males than in most FGM. So why do you accept male circumcision while recognizing that FGM is unacceptable for children?

	08-09-2004 00:56									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Natural: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/natural Not some culturally biased thing, natural is in accordance with nature, without artificial intervention. Circumcision is artificial intervention.

"relating to or concerning nature"

Circular definition - what is the "nature" of man. To some, its simply our physical state at birth, in a "state of nature". To Judaism and Islam the nature of man is to follow the path of G-d. To live without it is "unnatural" IE contradictory to the nature of man, the potential implanted within man at birth.

I am NOT here to convince anyone of the above - I aint proselytizing - but merely showing that the definition of nature youve presented is culturally bound. I realize that when their is a loss of real functionality - IE FGM, the state must take sides. In a situation in which there is disagreement, and in which the change is harmless, the state should not intervene, and allow the parents to decide.

	08-09-2004 00:57									#114
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quote: Yes, but comparable to having a part of your body removed with a scalpel, since that's what it is. Not exactly painless.

Yet, I have described it as having neglible pain.

quote: No

What was it you once said? Something about negative reinforcement of a certain behaviour?

quote: Wow, poisoning the well today aren't we?

Where the well is sprouting fallacies, inconsistencies and uncharacteristically flawed assuptions, I may as well merely accelerate the process

quote: Has anyone here ever been told he'll need to have surgery before the lady (or gentleman) making the request condescends to allow them in their knickers? If that did occur, did you willing become their *****?

Conceded, it's happened before

quote: A piece of skin that denotes the religion you were born into.

Is this a question of that piece of skin or your militant atheism? It is the parents right to bring up the child with an education of their religion and a statement of that childs past, what they do with that is their business but circumcision is no barrier to them doing so.

quote: Functionality doesn't exist anymore, since people shower. Maybe in the 19th century you'd have a point. And it's just as conspicuous as some brandings, depending on where you put it. Say a branding of the penis, since that's closest.

Less risk of STI, less risk of premature ejaculation, easier to keep clean (more hygienic like for like than uncut given same hygiene for both)

quote: They prefer what they're used to seeing. Girls (and gay guys) in Canada prefer uncut, since most people are uncut...

Canada lacks chutzpah!

quote: Speak for yourself. I like women to look like women, not pubescent girls.

I'll spare you the lecture on pubic hair growth shame:

quote: Circumcision is artificial intervention.

Just like IVF, heart surgery, Caesarian. Artificial vs natural means absolutely nothing, you of all people I'd have thought to be the first proponent of that!

quote: Says who?

Plato, Aristotle, Montaigne, Kant, Mill (Sr), Kierkgaarde, yourself

quote: "Hello Doctor! I'd like a painful little operation of dubious medical value that will leave me with diminished sexual sensitivity for the rest of my life! The chicks really dig it! Yes, I have semen backed up as far as my throat. How did you guess?"

"He can screw me for 40% longer than he can, give me less risk of STI, and has that alluring Semitic charm"

quote: Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy of staying someone believes something nasty/cruel/silly in order to make their other opinions seem less valid.

It wasn't nasty/cruel/silly, it was an argument you have previously advocated that is inconsistent with your present construct.

quote: Actually in most forms of FGM fertility is not impaired. More nerve endings are permenently destroyed in circumcison of males than in most FGM. So why do you accept male circumcision while recognizing that FGM is unacceptable for children?

It's laughable that you'd seek to compare them. Are you aware of the effects of female circumcision?

	08-09-2004 00:58									#115
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I love circumcision threads. They always include the following sentiments.

Uncircumcised male- "How dare you suggest I get no sex and my foreskin contains a mature Brie!"

Circumcised male- "How dare you suggest my parents abused me!"

Anyone ever dashed out to get cut after reading one?

	08-09-2004 00:58									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Actually in most forms of FGM fertility is not impaired. More nerve endings are permenently destroyed in circumcison of males than in most FGM. So why do you accept male circumcision while recognizing that FGM is unacceptable for children?

I wasnt speaking of fertility wrt FGM, but ability to receive sexual pleasure, which is notably reduced in FGM, which IIUC makes orgasm impossible.

	08-09-2004 00:59									#117
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark parents violate their childrens privacy all the time, in much more serious ways. Youre privileging something you call "bodily integrity" - which as far as I can tell is nothing more than a fetish of your particular culture.

Ahh, but the privacy i was refering to having violated was the permanent physical expression of that violated privacy. When someone is raped the crime isn't just the discomfort of the moment or the risk of catching disease or pregnancy. the real crime is this permanent intimate violation of ones privacy. With FGM or circumcision the victim gets a permanent physical reminder on their own body of this violation. I sure as hell wasn't refering to the parents observation of their childrens privates.

	08-09-2004 01:00									#118
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quote: Uncircumcised male- "How dare you suggest I get no sex and my foreskin contains a mature Brie!" Circumcised male- "How dare you suggest my parents abused me!"

	08-09-2004 01:00									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No, no It has always been several girls at a time that I asked, and none that I was involved with. I didn't tell them if I was cut or not. I simply asked them which they preferred. Sorry guys but they like the cut unit, just in the same way they prefer you to trim your Bavarian forest. It just looks alot cleaner.

like I said it depends on where they are from. Try your informal poll in a variety of settings.

	08-09-2004 01:01									#120
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I am NOT here to convince anyone of the above - I aint proselytizing - but merely showing that the definition of nature youve presented is culturally bound. I realize that when their is a loss of real functionality - IE FGM, the state must take sides. In a situation in which there is disagreement, and in which the change is harmless, the state should not intervene, and allow the parents to decide.

It reduces sensitivity. Since it is sensitivity that causes you to be able to procreate, it affects an important function. As well as simple pleasure. Like FGM, but to a much less degree, it reduces your ability to orgasm.