08-09-2004 01:25									#151
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If the effects were equivalent to male circumcision, IE no proven loss of functionality, then that would be fine, yes.

So mutilation is fine as long as there's no 'proven' loss of functionality? So as a child your parents can cut little parts out of your arm, so long as it's just bits of flesh that haven't been proven to reduce ability? Or to scar their back with their names?

	08-09-2004 01:26									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Even if you were right I'd still feel cheated. If I'm with a girl who prefers mutilated genitals then I would want to be able to demonstrate my affection and devotion to her by electing myself to let a docter carve parts of my body away to please her. If someone did it to me as an infant I'm cheated out of such a gesture. And again, why wouldn't the foreskin have disappeared from humanity by now if it's presence made men less sexually attractive to women? Why wouldn't women be getting their children circumcised all over the world especially in countires like Germany where the women have managed to force men to urinate sitting down. You would think that they would be geting their sons circumcised their if they thought it was intrinsically preferable.

The thing is that they don't look at it as "mutilated genitals."

Like I said, it's a fine piece of art.

I like how some of you guys are banking on the word, "mutilation" for sensational effect.

	08-09-2004 01:28									#153
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"mutilated genitals" is a bit harsh.

"lesser genitals" is perhaps more apt.

	08-09-2004 01:28									#154
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Honey, I don't need no words at all to give my love truncheon sensational effect.

	08-09-2004 01:28									#155
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If the effects were equivalent to male circumcision, IE no proven loss of functionality, then that would be fine, yes.

How about this proposition lotm? Will you accept a ban on all secular, non-medical (ie not meant to treat a disease already in evidence) modifications of peoples bodies without their consent? I don't care if sane people do things to peoples bodies in compliance with thousands of years of religion and tradition that have convinced them that G-d insists they do this. I only care when people do this because they think they personally know what is best for that persons body for all eternity over all possible objections that person might ever have. The sheer brutal arrogance of that stance infuriates me to no end.

	08-09-2004 01:29									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I don't see it as the parents choice in the first place. I see it as the person's choice. Their own body.

Children are in the care of their parents in every western society. They make all choices for the child that they care to, except in circumstance specified by the state. To take this right away, in reality, not in theory, you would have to have the state ban circumcision - which was the point of this thread, btw. The most recent case where that was done was in the USSR. The result was that thousands of men ended up worse off than in the current western system. You ignore the real costs those men. A full moral analysis of this issue MUST take those men into account, and explain either A. How the benefits to others outweighs them, through greater numbers, or whatever or B. Why the costs to them is of nul moral significance.

	08-09-2004 01:30									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Asher "mutilated genitals" is a bit harsh. "lesser genitals" is perhaps more apt.

Well, you know girls like anything with 10% off

	08-09-2004 01:31									#158
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Religions benefit from conformity. Cirumcision is just a way to try and enforce this conformity.

	08-09-2004 01:32									#159
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Children are in the care of their parents in every western society. They make all choices for the child that they care to, except in circumstance specified by the state. To take this right away, in reality, not in theory, you would have to have the state ban circumcision -

Not at all. It just needs an age limit- such as no circumcisions under the age of 18 except for clear medical need. No ban is necessary.

	08-09-2004 01:32									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So mutilation is fine as long as there's no 'proven' loss of functionality? So as a child your parents can cut little parts out of your arm, so long as it's just bits of flesh that haven't been proven to reduce ability? Or to scar their back with their names?

I dont know, id have to see how that worked out in the practice of an actual culture, and what the children brought up with that actually felt about it. Kinda like how I take note of the different reactions of women with FGM and of Jewish and muslim men. I dont judge these things in the abstract - i look at the social reality.

	08-09-2004 01:33									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Not at all. It just needs an age limit- such as no circumcisions under the age of 18 except for clear medical need. No ban is necessary.

I meant to say "ban infant circumcision"

at least you will admit that whats being called for is state action, and are not dancing around it.

	08-09-2004 01:33									#162
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Oh dear, Im sorry, is that whats bugging you? I suggest we drop this discussion, its not going to resolve anything.

Actually it will. what bothers me is the principle that people accept this. It happens and continues to happen and they want to say it's just fine.

There was a victim of a terrible drunken hit and run accident who was horribly burned resulting in massive scarring over 95% of his body the loss of fingers and generally ruined. this kid when he finally was able to face the driver in court a few years later stated that all he really wanted was for the driver to admit that he was sorry. That's it. i can really identify with that. It's much easier to deal with injustice if there is justice or remorse. But my point was this isn't the time to just chill out because this is such a minor issue. Asking me to chill out over this only serves to further inflame my resentment.

	08-09-2004 01:34									#163
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I would post a pic of my unit here for all of you to admire but unfortunatley the image is too big.

	08-09-2004 01:35									#164
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I meant to say "ban infant circumcision" at least you will admit that whats being called for is state action, and are not dancing around it.

Why dance? The state limits many other things parents can't do to their kids, after all.

Can't tattoo 'em, can't marry 'em off at 6, can't bugger 'em senseless over the corpse of a sacrificed goat. It's a police state, I tell you.

	08-09-2004 01:37									#165
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Children are in the care of their parents in every western society. They make all choices for the child that they care to, except in circumstance specified by the state. To take this right away, in reality, not in theory, you would have to have the state ban circumcision - which was the point of this thread, btw.

I don't see it as a right. Parents decide things that are non-permanent, when there is a medical necessity, or when there are two courses of action. When there is a course of action that is permanent, and a course of inaction, unless that person consents, then I believe it should be inaction.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The most recent case where that was done was in the USSR. The result was that thousands of men ended up worse off than in the current western system. You ignore the real costs those men. A full moral analysis of this issue MUST take those men into account, and explain either A. How the benefits to others outweighs them, through greater numbers, or whatever or B. Why the costs to them is of nul moral significance.

Take out morality then. If you mean people doing it elsewhere, in worse conditions, you have a point. However I wouldn't want the state to change laws just because of a religion. I still think circumcision is mutilation. It is a the removal of a part of your body without your consent. Inaction means you can do it later if you decide. It's about having the rights to your own body, which IMHO, ourweighs your parents right to your body. That's why sexual contact is generally illegal too, because it's without your consent. If a religious believed all children should be deflowered as children, I would think it wrong. If a religion things all children should have part of their genitals removed, I think that's wrong.

Wrt the USSR, I don't have any knowledge of that, what happened?

	08-09-2004 01:37									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Actually it will. what bothers me is the principal that people accept this. there was a victim of a terrible drunken hit and run accident who was horribly burned resulting in massive scarring over 95% of his body the loss of fingers and generally ruined. this kid when he finally was able to face the driver in court a few years later stated that all he really wanted was for the driver to admit that he was sorry. That's it. i can really identify with that. It's much easier to deal with injustice if there is justice or remorse. But my point was this isn't the time to just chill out because this is such a minor issue. Asking me to chill out over this only serves to further inflame my resentment.

If you want your parents to say their sorry, thats your business. Lots of people would like their parents to say their sorry for how they were raised, from guilt complexes, to anxiety issues, to lost careers (yup - my dad, my he rest in peace, wouldnt allow a piano in the house for the fear id become a musician and never amount to anything) I still love and miss the man, though I do wonder what my touring life would have been like ) Some of these things are QUITE permanent, and just as serious, I daresay, as loss of sensation. State intervention is not necessarily the answer however.

	08-09-2004 01:37									#167
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Children are in the care of their parents in every western society. They make all choices for the child that they care to, except in circumstance specified by the state. To take this right away, in reality, not in theory, you would have to have the state ban circumcision - which was the point of this thread, btw. The most recent case where that was done was in the USSR. The result was that thousands of men ended up worse off than in the current western system. You ignore the real costs those men. A full moral analysis of this issue MUST take those men into account, and explain either A. How the benefits to others outweighs them, through greater numbers, or whatever or B. Why the costs to them is of nul moral significance.

My parents made many decisions for me when I was growing up and I have reversed nearly all of them. It's one thing to grant parents sovereignty over their childs childhood but it's quite another to grant them sovereignty over their adulthood.

	08-09-2004 01:38									#168
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If you want your parents to say their sorry, thats your business. Lots of people would like their parents to say their sorry for how they were raised, from guilt complexes, to anxiety issues, to lost careers (yup - my dad, my he rest in peace, wouldnt allow a piano in the house for the fear id become a musician and never amount to anything) I still love and miss the man, though I do wonder what my touring life would have been like ) Some of these things are QUITE permanent, and just as serious, I daresay, as loss of sensation. State intervention is not necessarily the answer however.

No. My parents did say they were sorry. Now i want society to reform so it can't happen again. I want society to admit it was negligent in its duty of protecting the helpless from predation.

	08-09-2004 01:39									#169
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I meant to say "ban infant circumcision" at least you will admit that whats being called for is state action, and are not dancing around it.

I'd rather have parental inaction, but if it needs state action for force it, then yes, I'd call for state action to enforce inaction.

	08-09-2004 01:39									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I would post a pic of my unit here for all of you to admire but unfortunatley the image is too big.

please do not.

	08-09-2004 01:44									#172
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Drogue

I don't see it as a right. Parents decide things that are non-permanent, when there is a medical necessity, or when there are two courses of action. When there is a course of action that is permanent, and a course of inaction, unless that person consents, then I believe it should be inaction.


Take out morality then. If you mean people doing it elsewhere, in worse conditions, you have a point. However I wouldn't want the state to change laws just because of a religion. I still think circumcision is mutilation. It is a the removal of a part of your body without your consent. Inaction means you can do it later if you decide. It's about having the rights to your own body, which IMHO, ourweighs your parents right to your body. That's why sexual contact is generally illegal too, because it's without your consent. If a religious believed all children should be deflowered as children, I would think it wrong. If a religion things all children should have part of their genitals removed, I think that's wrong.

Wrt the USSR, I don't have any knowledge of that, what happened? [/QUOTE


Uh, have you been reading my posts? OK, lets review.
Circumcision, which was not a practice among gentiles, and was seen as a jewish religious practice to be discouraged, was banned. For all ages, which I understand is not what is being proposed, but what im interested in is the consequence. After the USSR fell Jewish men had the opportunity to become circumsized, and did so in large numbers. They suffered more pain and risk than they would have had they been circed as infants. Ergo they were net losers due to the fact that they were not circed as infants.

The point is that there IS no course of inaction, because circ is not equally painful in infancy and in adulthood. It is significantly more painful and more serious in adulthood. By not circing an infant you HAVE changed their situation as adults. Which means that a moral calculus that says that delay costs NOTHING cannot adequately reflect the full costs and benefits of the ban - which means that evaluating the ban cant be done in the abstract, but actually requires balancing the DIFFERENT impacts on different people.

	08-09-2004 01:46									#173
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Why not just exempt religious circumcision from the ban?

	08-09-2004 01:47									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo My parents made many decisions for me when I was growing up and I have reversed nearly all of them. It's one thing to grant parents sovereignty over their childs childhood but it's quite another to grant them sovereignty over their adulthood.

You cant reverse =not having a classical music career - once youre 18 thats too late. Ditto most sports. ditto about a thousand other things. Whatever your therapist tells you (and I like therapists, i really do ) Parents HAVE soverieignty over their childrens adulthood, over much more important things than a foreskin, though in the case of the other things its easier to deny - there are whole businesses set up convincing people they CAN reinvent themselves.

	08-09-2004 01:49									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Why not just exempt religious circumcision from the ban?

Well, now that would recognize certain realities of human reactions to it. I dont think it would work politically. Most anti-circ folks are just as hostile to religious circ, and most other folks arent interested in a ban at all.

	08-09-2004 01:54									#176
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You cant reverse =not having a classical music career - once youre 18 thats too late. Ditto most sports. ditto about a thousand other things. Whatever your therapist tells you (and I like therapists, i really do ) Parents HAVE soverieignty over their childrens adulthood, over much more important things than a foreskin, though in the case of the other things its easier to deny - there are whole businesses set up convincing people they CAN reinvent themselves.

Bologna!

Everything I do from my career in biological sciences to my agnostism to my acceptance of 'mainstream' american culture is contrary to my parents intentions and upbringing. I can't think of anything about me that stems from their value system. Each of my siblings has a dramatically different lifestyle and career choice. All were raised more or less alike. The notion that our adult lives are predetermined by what our parents want us to be is ridiculous. It certainly influences our lives, just as access to education influences a life but such influences can be overcome. circumcision or any other mutilation is the sole exception. it can never be overcome. nothing you do as an adult has any influence on that decision whatsoever.

	08-09-2004 01:54									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Actually it doesn't. If you chop it off, it can't grow back. if you don't chop it off, it can be done later, if that person wants it.

With freinds in no-circ (make a guess), I know that you are wrong. It can be grown back (just is very annoying to do so).

Jon Miller

	08-09-2004 01:55									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller With freinds in no-circ (make a guess), I know that you are wrong. It can be grown back (just is very annoying to do so). Jon Miller

That's just cosmetic, though.

	08-09-2004 01:57									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller With freinds in no-circ (make a guess), I know that you are wrong. It can be grown back (just is very annoying to do so). Jon Miller

Oh brother. We currently can't even grow back eyelids with current medical tech. what makes you possibly believe that some quack has found a way to grow back a foreskin? I suppose they could do some sort of skin graft or skin expansion but the results would be purely cosmetic.

	08-09-2004 02:00									#180
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I bet it can be done

In Germany recently they had a guy that grew a jaw that was implanted into his back

And no I am NOT making this up.

The jaw was a perfect fit too

And of course you all have seen the mouse that grew a human ear