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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
er cause it prevents you from having children? See also FGM. Circumcision has no effects like the above. |
This is what I find frightening. For you if someone castrated a kid it's sad because now the kid will have to adopt to have children. For me it's sad because this poor kid has been mutilated and violated and will have to live with it forever.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
It reduces sensitivity. Since it is sensitivity that causes you to be able to procreate, it affects an important function. As well as simple pleasure. Like FGM, but to a much less degree, it reduces your ability to orgasm. |
well then we're back to the arguement over subtle differences in sensation.
As for procreation 
"Yeshiva families and Chassidic families typically have seven children or more. They are similar to yeshiva and chassidic families who live in Jerusalem, on whom a study was done by the Jerusalem municipality in February 1993 by Dr. Sara Hershkowitz of the Strategic Planning Department of the Jerusalem Municipality. From a survey she conducted of 750 families who live in the Orthodox neighborhoods of Har Nof, Ezras Torah, Kiryat Sanz, Kiryat Belz and Shikun Chabad (neighborhoods, by the way, with a high percentage of American and European Orthodox Jews), she found the following (p.23):
24% of all families had four children or less
26.5% had 5-6 children.
24.9% had 7-8 children
24.5% had 9 children or more.
In other words, nearly 50% of the Chassidic/yeshiva community in Jerusalem had seven children or more.
Menachem Friedman, a sociologist in Bar Ilan who has written extensively about the chassidic/Yeshiva community, told me that the fertility rate of the strictly Orthodox population in Israel is 7.5 births per family -- almost three times that of the secularists in Israel, whose fertility rate stands at around 2.7 births. (The secularists in Israel, by the way, are doing much better than American Jews, with approximately 1.6 births per woman.)
Mr. Friedman mentions that demographers in Israel have projected that the Orthodox (chareidi) community in Israel will triple within 25 years, reaching close to a million by 2025. Other Orthodox groups in Israel also have a higher than usual fertility rate: the Modern Orthodox/Mizrachi - 3.5 children per family; "Chardal" (Strictly religious National Religious) - 6-7 children.
Mr. Friedman says that a birth rate of 4.7 is required for a community to double itself every generation. If so, it is clear that the strictly Orthodox are more than doubling themselves with each passing generation. The fact is that they have among the highest birth rates in the world."
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Where the well is sprouting fallacies, inconsistencies and uncharacteristically flawed assuptions, I may as well merely accelerate the process  |
And in doing so, sprout your own fallacies. Although where my logical fallacies are I'd love to know.
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
It is the parents right to bring up the child with an education of their religion and a statement of that childs past, what they do with that is their business but circumcision is no barrier to them doing so. |
It's a permanent reminder of the religion they were forced into. It's done for religious reasons, and it's permanent. That seems to follow. It's not a parents right to force someone into a religion, whichever it is, IMHO. Or to cause irreversable damage in the name of that religion without the childs consent.
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Less risk of STI, less risk of premature ejaculation, easier to keep clean (more hygienic like for like than uncut given same hygiene for both) |
Less sensitive, thus higher risk of inability to ejaculate. Less sensitive is making a part of the body less able to do the job it was intended for (copulation).
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I'll spare you the lecture on pubic hair growth shame: |
It's so tempting to join you poisoning the well here, but I still have some sense of decency.
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Just like IVF, heart surgery, Caesarian. Artificial vs natural means absolutely nothing, you of all people I'd have thought to be the first proponent of that! |
Exactly, but only when it's their choice, or a medical necessity. Leave everything natural until they decide otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Plato, Aristotle, Montaigne, Kant, Mill (Sr), Kierkgaarde |
Nowadays, smacking and discapline isn't seen as the be all and end all of raising a child. It used to be. I think we're better off now.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Not just that my parents abused me, but that the state should have prevented that abuse, meaning that for me to reach the state I prefer (my current one) I would have to have undergone a more painful, more risky procedure than the one i in fact underwent.
the anticirc arguments are abstract philosophical ones and DONT address the realities of most men who were circed for religious reasons being happy with that, and many who were prevented from doing so being unhappy with it.
You have to argue that my friend who had an adult circ as a result of Soviet laws was NOT abused by said Soviet laws, despite his own belief that he was. |
If the state won't prevent it how will the victim prevent it? I don't care if the state doesnt prevent, say spanking, since at least one day I'll grow up and the spanking will end. circumcison will *never* end however. The state needs to intervene when there will be no chance for the individual to ever protect their rights themselves later on as an adult.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Well, I don't have anything to measure it against, but it's sensitive enough, if you don't have anything to measure it against you don't know what you're missing. |
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
well then we're back to the arguement over subtle differences in sensation. |
Wow, now it's reducing sensation being a bad thing, it's a subtle difference.
And when I said procreation, I didn't mean you couldn't have children. I meant that some people will, in later life, find it hard to orgasm. If circumcision reduces sensitivity, then it will make it even harder for them to orgasm. Anything that reduces your abiolity to ejaculate also reduces your ability to have children, since you must ejaculate to have children. The degree to which is is is small, i grant you, but that, along with the reduced sensitivity, stop circumcision being harmless. However small their effect is, it is an effect. Thus circumcision could be said to cause limited harm, but not to be harmless.
quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Unless the Doc just like totally slips and takes a hard right. |
Which is still possible, albeit unlikely.
quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
One interesting thing to consider, when someone gets a sex change operation, they cut you unit in half and shove it up inside you and it becomes a vagina.
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
But they consented, as an adult. A parent forcing a child to undergo a sex change would be wrong, to me.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Most of them have been in person but one did involve an online poll, with people from Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK
I still got the same results. |
Even if you were right I'd still feel cheated. If I'm with a girl who prefers mutilated genitals then I would want to be able to demonstrate my affection and devotion to her by electing myself to let a docter carve parts of my body away to please her. If someone did it to me as an infant I'm cheated out of such a gesture.
And again, why wouldn't the foreskin have disappeared from humanity by now if it's presence made men less sexually attractive to women? Why wouldn't women be getting their children circumcised all over the world especially in countires like Germany where the women have managed to force men to urinate sitting down. You would think that they would be geting their sons circumcised their if they thought it was intrinsically preferable.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Geronimo
This is what I find frightening. For you if someone castrated a kid it's sad because now the kid will have to adopt to have children. For me it's sad because this poor kid has been mutilated and violated and will have to live with it forever. [/QUOTE
Its MUTILATION AND VIOLATION BECAUSE it takes away funtionality.
er, in my country parents have their little girls ears pierced at age 3. Not something I would do, but to describe it has as mutilation and violation would be seen as most as a sign of someone who needs to chill a bit. |
How long will I have to chill before I get my foreskin back?
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08-09-2004 01:03
Undoubtedly less consequences to personal pleasure than some men who were raised to think sex is sinful, yet no one proposes banning that 
Brilliant! 
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