08-09-2004 08:53									#241
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IIRC, there's no difference between circumcised and uncircumcised penises when having safe sex with regards to STDs.

So what's the problem?

	08-09-2004 13:53									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The risk reduction yield from circumcision is about 50 to 75% according to ongoing studies done by the WHO in Africa.

Ignoring the fact that what goes on in African villages studied in those tests probably doesn't go on the same across America, do you really think that if the US didn't circumcise most of its men that the HIV rates would leap by around another 50%? Are Americans THAT bad at looking after themselves?

	08-09-2004 16:36									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Asher IIRC, there's no difference between circumcised and uncircumcised penises when having safe sex with regards to STDs. So what's the problem?

Relying on being circumcised to not get STDs is insane.

	08-09-2004 16:46									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done.

Sadly that's not our choice. If you allow it done as babies, then they don't have the choice not to have it done. That's my problem. If everyone who didn't want it could choose not to have it done, I'd be fine with it. But they can't. Leave it until they can choose.

Nobodies trying to convince you you shouldn't be proud of it, just that it shouldn't be forced on someone who hasn't consented to it.

	08-09-2004 16:52									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I'm not bitter, I'm angry at lame, pretentious arguments. I take your argument to advocate the denial of the choice, PLEASE, do correct me where I am mistaken!

Actually I want to give choice, to the person, not to their parents.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You speak in the language of a listener but you seem to refuse to listen to the statement that circumcision is harmless. I'm sorry if you had a botched operation, but one does always assume competance and imo a few mishaps do not justify the procedure being denied.

Even LotM admitted that it''s not harmless, if you read the arguments given. The penis is supposed to be sensitive, it's one of it's functions. Reducing sensitivity reduces that function, that of copulation. It makes it harder to, as you've admitted yourself. One of the functions of the penis is copulation, and circumcision reduces the ability to copulate, by making it harder, as you've said.

	08-09-2004 17:02									#246
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Why is the debate is on male circumcision and nothing more?

Or maybe its because obviously, female circumcision is an evil thing to do. Even Reader's Digest advocates that.

Or something, hmm.

	08-09-2004 17:03									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Sterilisation is a measure which has a long term effect, negative shall we say unless specifically requested otherwise. That is not the case with circumcision.

Actually, reducing sensitivity is a long term effect, that can be positive or negative. Thus it shouldn't be done unless requested otherwise, IMHO.

Indeed, if you read the arguments last night about this, LotM was claiming that it hadn't been proven to reduce sensitivity, because that would be a reduction in functionality.

The foreskin evolved because it protects a very sensitive part of the body, so that it is both protected and remains sensitive so it can do it's job. Reducing the sensitivity to protect it is unnecessary, since it is already protected. I don't believe that protection should be removed without the expressed permission of that person. I don't believe it is a parents right to choose to cut bits off the body of their children.

	08-09-2004 17:04									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Why is the debate is on male circumcision and nothing more? Or maybe its because obviously, female circumcision is an evil thing to do. Even Reader's Digest advocates that.

I think we all agreed on that already. FGM is cruel and rightfully banned.

	08-09-2004 17:04									#249
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You have to argue that my friend who had an adult circ as a result of Soviet laws was NOT abused by said Soviet laws, despite his own belief that he was.

You're implying there'd be a problem with arguing so?

	08-09-2004 18:08									#250
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I don't think circumcision was ever really based on science- although the African evidence is interesting.

I'd like to know why it was so common in the USA, Australia and other places. The military link is just a guess - those crazy ex army doctors....

In Europe, being circumcised is directly linked to being Jewish or muslim and I suspect that has a lot to do with the low general rate.

But hey! Who cares!

	08-09-2004 18:41									#251
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The explanation I've heard for it being so common in the 'States is that it was in the 19th C thought to discourage masturbation.

Anyone know if that actually works - are circumcised boys less prone to masturbate? If so, why, if not, why did th idea gain credence?

	08-09-2004 18:56									#252
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I don't think it works

if it did, and I was uncut, than I doubt I would ever do anything else

Jon Miller

	08-09-2004 19:58									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Anyone know if that actually works - are circumcised boys less prone to masturbate? If so, why, if not, why did th idea gain credence?

I think it makes it harder, but I don't think that necessarily discourages trying

	08-09-2004 20:18									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Anyone know if that actually works - are circumcised boys less prone to masturbate? If so, why, if not, why did th idea gain credence?

Speaking from my, err....second hand experience with cut masturbation, it is more difficult to masturbate a circumcised penis. The foreskin, between covering the glans and being pulled back, means there is enough loose skin to make masturbation easier and lube is not always required (it's more fun with lube of course). With a cut penis, there isn't that loose skin. Frankly, my dear, ****ing a cutjob just baffles me.

Au natural all the way. Pity cause I like jewish boys in all other respects.

	08-09-2004 20:25									#255
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Come on folks... let's not let this thread head down hill...

While the topic itself is prone to such down hill slides, TRY to stay on the actual topic.

	08-09-2004 20:44									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Speaking from my, err....second hand experience

I agree with Ming, let's get back on topic. I started a new job yesterday, and if someone's reading of my shoulder it could be quite funny

	08-09-2004 20:53									#257
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How is the motivations for circumcision irrelevant to the topic of banning the practice?

	08-09-2004 21:46									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist How is the motivations for circumcision irrelevant to the topic of banning the practice?

"Motivations" is one thing... detailed descriptions of the process are another...

Again... please remember that the owners consider this a family site... and I'm sure a few of the previous posts don't fall under that category

	08-09-2004 21:54									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There's a little more scientific evidence supporting the claims now. The earlier studies were mostly badly flawed. OTOH the major study is not yet finished AFAIK. I still believe that monogamy and discouraging casual sex are still the best tactics. I also feel strongly that if you're going to advocate circumcision you ought to be up front about the risks. It offers relative protection, not absolute protection. I believe that in areas like Africa it's mandatory to advocate both approaches: mass circumcision, and monogamy.

One without the other would be counter-productive to the point of being dangerous. Circumcision might grant some dubious marginal protection to the owner of the knob in question, but not to whomever they choose to insert it into.

If they start getting the impression that it leaves you risk-free and able to happily spread your seed without protection, then they're a danger to themselves and many others. Personally speaking, I think offering circumcision as a prevention for AIDS is like promoting Bowler hats as a protection against getting shot in the head.

	08-09-2004 22:04									#260
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lol, I think Starchild's post just about sums it up. Uncut IS the way to go.

	09-09-2004 04:56									#261
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It's not a competition you know.

	09-09-2004 05:39									#262
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What the hell are you talking about?

	09-09-2004 06:20									#263
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I'm just mystified as to why you are so interested in other men's tackle.

	09-09-2004 06:21									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Come on folks... let's not let this thread head down hill... While the topic itself is prone to such down hill slides, TRY to stay on the actual topic.

One more time...

	09-09-2004 07:10									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I don't think circumcision was ever really based on science- although the African evidence is interesting. I'd like to know why it was so common in the USA, Australia and other places. The military link is just a guess - those crazy ex army doctors.... In Europe, being circumcised is directly linked to being Jewish or muslim and I suspect that has a lot to do with the low general rate. But hey! Who cares!

Right around WW2 some studies claiming to show the health benefits of circumcision with regards to infections and cancer of the penis were published. In the post-war US health insurance and in hospital births were becoming the norm. Once obstetricians and pediatricians accepted the proposed benefits of circumcision, and had been given a carte blanche by insurance companies circumcision rapidly became the norm for the US population. It was often part of the obstetrical package, and sometimes they didn't even ask the parents' permission.

	09-09-2004 07:19									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp One without the other would be counter-productive to the point of being dangerous. Circumcision might grant some dubious marginal protection to the owner of the knob in question, but not to whomever they choose to insert it into.

If Willy ****er doesn't get the disease, then he can't pass it on to Vickie Vagina, now can he?

quote: If they start getting the impression that it leaves you risk-free and able to happily spread your seed without protection, then they're a danger to themselves and many others. Personally speaking, I think offering circumcision as a prevention for AIDS is like promoting Bowler hats as a protection against getting shot in the head.

As I stated above it may confer a 50 to 75% reduction of the rate of transmission of the virus. Circumcision is the primary reason why the rate of AIDS among muslims in Africa is actually much less than half that of Christians and pagans in the same area.
You don't want to see the muslims take over do you?
Optimally the population should be made aware that monogamy is the best means to prevent the spread of HIV, but should be strongly encouraged to get themselves and their male children circumcised as the best, albeit imperfect protection against the consequences of human weakness. They should also be encouraged to use condoms.

	09-09-2004 07:43									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm just mystified as to why you are so interested in other men's tackle.

Not once did I express an interest in what other mens' "tackles" were like, or such. I've merely been debating the issue of circumcision. You are truly baffling.

	09-09-2004 10:12									#268
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well so is your interest in the subject

while I like a good circ thread as much as the next troll, the difference seems to me to be about as important as whether you like your potatos in the jacket or not.

	09-09-2004 23:15									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove If Willy ****er doesn't get the disease, then he can't pass it on to Vickie Vagina, now can he?

You may have missed the crucial "One without the other..." in my post. Then again, you may just have felt like stating the blindingly obvious. Whatever.

	09-09-2004 23:52									#270
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The question here is whether the state has a right to intervene "on the childs behalf" In my case that would have ended up being to my personal detriment, and i cant help but think that theres something wrong with a moral calculus that is flagrantly wrong in the my own case.

Agreed. Like abortion, this one should be left up to the parents. I see absolutely no need for banning it.

And who wants to be on the circumcision task force anyways?