08-09-2004 02:00									#181
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Well, now that would recognize certain realities of human reactions to it. I dont think it would work politically. Most anti-circ folks are just as hostile to religious circ, and most other folks arent interested in a ban at all.

but it is compromises such as these that allow any sort of political settlments to be reached at all. Most laws that are passed displease all parties involved but so long as the most critical interest of both parties aren't compromised by the deal then the agitation can subside and the new status quo becomes more stable and palatable over all than what came before

	08-09-2004 02:04									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I bet it can be done In Germany recently they had a guy that grew a jaw that was implanted into his back And no I am NOT making this up. The jaw was a perfect fit too And of course you all have seen the mouse that grew a human ear

If such a technique were available for the specialized genital tissues the first use I want to see made of it would be for the victims of the worst cases of FGM. these women cannot even experience orgasm at all. The tissues of both male and female genitals derive from the same sources so I would imagine that if indeed they had found a way to 'regrow' a foreskin they should first apply such technology to those most harmed by genital mutilation.

	08-09-2004 02:11									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Bologna! Everything I do from my career in biological sciences to my agnostism to my acceptance of 'mainstream' american culture is contrary to my parents intentions and upbringing. I can't think of anything about me that stems from their value system. Each of my siblings has a dramatically different lifestyle and career choice. All were raised more or less alike. The notion that our adult lives are predetermined by what our parents want us to be is ridiculous. It certainly influences our lives, just as access to education influences a life but such influences can be overcome. circumcision or any other mutilation is the sole exception. it can never be overcome. nothing you do as an adult has any influence on that decision whatsoever.

I didnt say by what your parents WANTED you to be. Conscious choices like that are more easily reversed - im talking about more fundamental ways of being, of emoting, etc. Things parents often pass on without particularly intending to do so.
I have people close to me whose religion culture, etc are profundly different from their parents. But I can still see ways they were influenced, in the ways they make decisions, etc. Think of the children of Orthodox Jews who became Communists, and got into the close study and interpretation of texts, fine intellectual arguements of detailed points, etc. In many cases they were much more their parents children than either they or their parents could admit.



And yes you can overcome things. It may be too late to speak Italian like a native, but one can still be proficient in Italian in other areas of Italian language and culture that many folks with a better accent may not achieve. And ditto, you can still achieve sexual pleasure in ways that arent impacted by the presence or absence of a foreskin.

	08-09-2004 02:14									#184
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nm

	08-09-2004 02:17									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's just cosmetic, though.

:shrug:

they swear by it

JM

	08-09-2004 02:19									#186
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This issue came up with baby Flubber-- Mrs Flubber wanted him cut, I didn't. ( I myself am cut if that matters).

For Mrs Flubber it was a medical thing-- she worked a couple of years in a post-op area where she saw a lot of medically necessary circumcisions done later in life with the pain that caused. She gave in, but only on my promise that I had to explain it to him if he ever requires any cutting in the area.


Oh and being cut is cleaner, but showering 8 times a day is "cleaner" than showering once or twice. I also don't mind at all that I am cut . Everything works great. For me it came down to the simple question as to the benefits of the procedure ( religion not a factor). While there are some minor increased risks for infection with staying uncut, there wasn't enough to make me want to do this.

If ever baby Flub needs something done in the area I know I will regret the decision, but I still think its the right one.

	08-09-2004 02:23									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber This issue came up with baby Flubber-- Mrs Flubber wanted him cut, I didn't. ( I myself am cut if that matters). For Mrs Flubber it was a medical thing-- she worked a couple of years in a post-op area where she saw a lot of medically necessary circumcisions done later in life with the pain that caused. She gave in, but only on my promise that I had to explain it to him if he ever requires any cutting in the area. Oh and being cut is cleaner, but showering 8 times a day is "cleaner" than showering once or twice. I also don't mind at all that I am cut . Everything works great. For me it came down to the simple question as to the benefits of the procedure ( religion not a factor). While there are some minor increased risks for infection with staying uncut, there wasn't enough to make me want to do this. If ever baby Flub needs something done in the area I know I will regret the decision, but I still think its the right one.

	08-09-2004 02:28									#188
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The only time when I think circumcision is ok is when it's for religious purposes, like Judaism.

Otherwise, it's totally unecessary and even risky. Circumcision isn't a simple thing, and there is always a risk of doing damage to the infant penis if the operation isn't successful. I'm uncut, and thankful for it.

	08-09-2004 03:03									#189
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As an a member of the uncuts, I have to asy that it absolutely terrifies me to think of what I'd have lost if someone had decided to chop my foreskin off. Any uncut person who has ever had the discomfort of having his penis unsheathed and having the head rub against the fabric of his clothing knows exactly how sensitive the head is- and that if this sensitivity was lost (And it IS lost, unless a circumsized person would like to tell me how they wince every time their penis's head rubs against their underwear), then sex would be so much less fun.

The question of banning it though is quite tricky. But, I have to say that I think it should banned for infants, except with the usual exceptions (Rape and incest... no wait, that's abortion). Maybe Jews should find another way of gaining this covenent with God that playing with their children's penis seems to grant. Chop off their little toes or something (It'd have hygenic benefits! What are you waiting for?).

	08-09-2004 03:05									#190
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Male circumcision . Join the club fellas .

	08-09-2004 03:09									#191
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=======================================||)

	08-09-2004 03:09									#192
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NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!

	08-09-2004 03:19									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Male circumcision . Join the club fellas .

How do we quit the club?

	08-09-2004 03:27									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie unless a circumsized person would like to tell me how they wince every time their penis's head rubs against their underwear), then sex would be so much less fun.

I'll confess . .. I don't have any clue what its like to be uncut . .. . but if sex were any more pleasurable then I wouldn't want to ever be doing anything else

	08-09-2004 03:30									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I'll confess . .. I don't have any clue what its like to be uncut . .. . but if sex were any more pleasurable then I wouldn't want to ever be doing anything else

doesn't sound so bad does it?

	08-09-2004 03:53									#196
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There is some evidence that circumcision decreases the rate of HIV transmission.

	08-09-2004 03:58									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There is some evidence that circumcision decreases the rate of HIV transmission.

irrelavent. Nobody is proposing that sexually active adults could not elect to get circumcised if they thought that as a result their unprotected sex would get some fractional reduction in the chance they will get aids.

Infants on the other hand don't get aids from sex anyway.

	08-09-2004 04:08									#198
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Not really, AIDS is just one thing that was noted. I am willing to be the same rule applies for many other diseases, and not just sexually transmitted ones.

I think alot of religious beliefs are rooted in practical wisdom. For example, viriginity was smart back in day because it prevented the spread of disease, and also pregnancy.

So, they have alot of origins in the practical, not the moral.

	08-09-2004 04:21									#199
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what are you saying? that even elephants are circumcised?

	08-09-2004 04:26									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo irrelavent. Nobody is proposing that sexually active adults could not elect to get circumcised if they thought that as a result their unprotected sex would get some fractional reduction in the chance they will get aids. Infants on the other hand don't get aids from sex anyway.

But they grow to become sexually active teens, who are likely to impulsively engage in sexual activity. If you circumcise them as babies you're giving him at least some protection that will extend into a period of his life when he's capable of being sexually active, but doesn't necessarily have the adult capacity to exercise good judgement. You also have to consider his partners and the general public. Using this simple public health measure could save millions of lives each year. Isn't saving a million lives worth it? Why leave it to chance. Another consideration is that in developing countries it probably is cheaper to circumcise baby boys. All it takes is a little device that looks like a small wine bottle cork popper.

	08-09-2004 04:30									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove But they grow to become sexually active teens, who are likely to impulsively engage in sexual activity. If you circumcise them as babies you're giving him at least some protection that will extend into a period of his life when he's capable of being sexually active, but doesn't necessarily have the adult capacity to exercise good judgement. You also have to consider his partners and the general public. Using this simple public health measure could save millions of lives each year. Isn't saving a million lives worth it? Why leave it to chance. Another consideration is that in developing countries it probably is cheaper to circumcise baby boys. All it takes is a little device that looks like a small wine bottle cork popper.

just allow them to get circumcised from about age of puberty on. If they are old enough to engage in sex they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to have their bodies surgically altered to make them less likely to catch an STD. All the sex I had as an adolescent was protected. In my case I would have been much better off skipping the circumcison because it wouldn't have made the slightest difference in my chances of catching aids. Why apply the same treatment to everybody instead of allowing the patient to make up their own minds? I don't want surgery applied to me because other people are too stupid to apply it to themselves or mold their behavior to fit thier circumstances. their deaths are on their own heads by that age.

furthermore. circumcision does not under even the most generous phantasies provide enough protection from STD to save millions of lives a year. If your partner has aids you are going to catch the aids circumcised or not. This will only come into play for a fraction of unprotected one night stands. Not everybody takes part in unprotected one night stands.

	08-09-2004 04:38									#202
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I gotta go with the Doc on this one

Keep in mind, there are more teenage pregnancies in Riverside Country California than in Japan and France combined. There are two other big countries in this figure but I can't remember what they are. I think UK is one.

I don't think we are making the right decisions when it comes to hitting it.

	08-09-2004 04:40									#203
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I don't buy your "it'll save millions of lives" stuff, Dr. Strangelove. As it is, the majority of American males are circumsized, yet the rates of HIV transmission are appalling in the US comapred to other western countries where the pracrise is not common. In Israel it's the opposite, but that just goes to show that HIV levels probably are not linked so closely to circumcision. There may be some prtoection in it, but I do not think the risk-benefit ratio is as massive as you state.

Plus I do not think giving poorly-trained doctors in third-world states more power to perform essentially un-necessary surgery on children is ever a good thing.

	08-09-2004 04:42									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I gotta go with the Doc on this one Keep in mind, there are more teenage pregnancies in Riverside Country California than in Japan and France combined. There are two other big countries in this figure but I can't remember what they are. I think UK is one. I don't think we are making the right decisions when it comes to hitting it.

so what? if they are circumcised then the ban on infant circ makes no difference. if they aren't then let them make up their own damn minds. Have you all forgotten what it was like to be that age? it sounds like you only remember what you did and what happened so you can't fathom why the attitude that they are too young to decide whether they need surgical intervention to give them a tiny fraction of (poorly doccumented and understood) protection from STDs is infuriating.

	08-09-2004 04:51									#205
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You seem to have some sort of a grudge

Did the doc take off a little extra or something?

The wisdom of the procedure makes sense. And I still trust the opinons of an experienced MD over all the crybaby ranting in this thread any day.

	08-09-2004 04:59									#206
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Ted:

	08-09-2004 05:02									#207
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Who gives a damn? Nobody ever *****es about kids getting braces, even though they're rarely medically necessary, but once a wang gets involved everybody gets all teary-eyed about baby mutilation or whatever. Oh, won't somebody please think of the children who have a useless piece of skin cut off of their tallywhackers while they're still too young to even remember the procedure! Cry me a ****ing river.

	08-09-2004 05:08									#208
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I'd be at least as ticked off if they had say pulled some teeth or if they gave me bonded braces that I could never remove. Hell I'd be ticked off if they had just pierced my ear. I DON'T WANT ANYBODY messing with my healthy body. And when I find that somebody did I'm indignant about it. why is that odd LB?

	08-09-2004 05:08									#209
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loinburger:

And a damn appropriate name!

People are insecure about penises. Anal sex, genital piercing, circumcisions, people get all insecure and petty about it cos that's where there own hang-ups lie. Its pathetic.

	08-09-2004 05:09									#210
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Who gives a damn? Nobody ever *****es about kids getting braces, even though they're rarely medically necessary, but once a wang gets involved everybody gets all teary-eyed about baby mutilation or whatever. Oh, won't somebody please think of the children who have a useless piece of skin cut off of their tallywhackers while they're still too young to even remember the procedure! Cry me a ****ing river.