08-09-2004 05:11									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy loinburger: And a damn appropriate name! People are insecure about penises. Anal sex, genital piercing, circumcisions, people get all insecure and petty about it cos that's where there own hang-ups lie. Its pathetic.

Ahh so if somebody tatooed a rose on your forehead while you were passed out you would be cool with that, since it wasn't your genitals? You have no problem with people having their way with the rest of your body?

	08-09-2004 05:13									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker

So you think that if someone does something to some other part of my body i'd be just fine with that? Actually that does tick me off more, because if they had messed with somne other part of my body people would accept my complaints at face value but with genitals people attach all this weird freudian bullshit to it. It was the surgeon who singled out my genitals not me.

	08-09-2004 05:15									#213
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I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone respond so passionatley to ""

	08-09-2004 05:16									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone respond so passionatley to ""

so at least you read the post. I figured I could reason with you. I have no hope for the poster you were responding to.

	08-09-2004 05:20									#215
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quote: Ahh so if somebody tatooed a rose on your forehead while you were passed out you would be cool with that, since it wasn't your genitals? You have no problem with people having their way with the rest of your body?

As a baby, its the parents perogative if there are no lasting negative effects for the kid, which there aren't in this case.

I was circumsized because I am Jewish. If you are trying to explain to me why I should be angry about that, you are failing miserably. I am proud of being circumsized, I am proud of my people and history (if not some of their present actions) and I am grateful to my family for having my circumsized.

You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift.

You use the most woefully flawed analogies I can imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd strawman us to say that decapitating a kid was ok by our logic. Can you not see the distinction between circumcision and assault? One has lasting negative effects, and the kids are usually upset about it. Circumcision is not.

	08-09-2004 05:22									#216
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quote: so at least you read the post. I figured I could reason with you. I have no hope for the poster you were responding to.

I can assure you that loinburger has a lot more credibility here than you.

	08-09-2004 05:23									#217
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I have to agree with the Whaleboy.

I am proud of it, and am glad my parents did it.

Forbidding drums in the house, now that's another story!!!

	08-09-2004 05:24									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy As a baby, its the parents perogative if there are no lasting negative effects for the kid, which there aren't in this case. I was circumsized because I am Jewish. If you are trying to explain to me why I should be angry about that, you are failing miserably. I am proud of being circumsized, I am proud of my people and history (if not some of their present actions) and I am grateful to my family for having my circumsized. You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift. You use the most woefully flawed analogies I can imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd strawman us to say that decapitating a kid was ok by our logic. Can you not see the distinction between circumcision and assault? One has lasting negative effects, and the kids are usually upset about it. Circumcision is not.

actually I don't have much disagreement with those who circumcise because thousands of years of tradition and family upbringing lead them to believe G-d has established an obligation for them to do this. So I don't suppose you and I disagree about your situation much. We may disagree about circumcisions done for more arrogant reasons however.

	08-09-2004 05:29									#219
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quote: actually I don't have much disagreement with those who circumcise because thousands of years of tradition and family upbringing lead them to believe G-d has established an obligation for them to do this. So I don't suppose you and I disagree about your situation much. We may disagree about circumcisions done for more arrogant reasons however.

They can do it for any reason they want in my opinion, and the only argument against is the minute cost of the procedure. If parents want it done for health reasons, cosmetic reasons, secular tradition, philosophy or religion, they're all good reasons . Frankly I wouldn't complain to see it done by default unless the parents specify otherwise.

	08-09-2004 05:30									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I can assure you that loinburger has a lot more credibility here than you.

I stated an opinion about someones crediblity? I don't question crediblity especially in certain groups. Crediblity doesn't interest me nearly as much as content in this case. Credibility is about honesty and deception which doesn't appear to be the critical factor in an ethical debate. However his post was strident to a degree that I didn't anticipate much chance of reasoning with him. I responded to Ted expecting perhaps to at least get my point across.

	08-09-2004 05:34									#221
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quote: I stated an opinion about someones crediblity? I don't question crediblity especially in certain groups. Crediblity doesn't interest me nearly as much as content in this case. Credibility is about honesty and deception which doesn't appear to be the critical factor in an ethical debate.

If you're trying to be prescriptive, honesty matters a hell of a lot. Descriptively, fine, but then you wouldn't be trying to tell others that what they are doing is wrong.

As for reasoning with him, it's simple. Deconstruct his argument, look at his points, identify assumptions to be explored, flawed reasoning and premises, and fallacies therein, and highlight them. All arguments have assumptions, many have flaws, it's not difficult. *Said in the most patronising voice possible*.

	08-09-2004 05:34									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift.

I get angry because I can't make that choice. I get angry because people strawman me when I explain why I resent being denied that choice. the language of rape fits my experience a hell of a lot more closely than the language of gift. I am glad however that you are content with the hand that was dealt you. What was good for you is not automactially good or even acceptable for everybody else.

	08-09-2004 05:40									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy If you're trying to be prescriptive, honesty matters a hell of a lot. Descriptively, fine, but then you wouldn't be trying to tell others that what they are doing is wrong. As for reasoning with him, it's simple. Deconstruct his argument, look at his points, identify assumptions to be explored, flawed reasoning and premises, and fallacies therein, and highlight them. All arguments have assumptions, many have flaws, it's not difficult. *Said in the most patronising voice possible*.

I see you weren't shy about offering your own little unsolicited theory about why I'm angry about this earlier. Why don't you explain why you yourself now feel the need to direct the most patronising voice possible at me? You say you're content with your situation and I've even stated that I wouldn't oppose allowing things to work out the same for those in your situation in the future as they did for you. And yet you clearly are bitter at me for not accepting the lot that was dealt to me. can you explain this? (I don't have a pet theory of my own I like to hear people give their own account of themselves. Perhaps I feel that has more credibility

	08-09-2004 05:44									#224
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quote: the language of rape fits my experience a hell of a lot more closely than the language of gift.

Awww diddums, poor Geronimo gets friction burns

quote: I am glad however that you are content with the hand that was dealt you. What was good for you is not automactially good or even acceptable for everybody else.

Nothing I have said advocates the denial of that choice and the forceful imposition of circumcision. To have it done by default except where the parents state otherwise still leaves the choice. I want that choice open and circumcision to be recommended. As for your last sentence, I find that ironic after I told you the difference between descriptive and prescriptive.

	08-09-2004 05:46									#225
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Why would anybody be proud of having skin removed from your manhood?

It makes you less of a man, by definition.

	08-09-2004 05:48									#226
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quote: I see you weren't shy about offering your own little unsolicited theory about why I'm angry about this earlier. Why don't you explain why you yourself now feel the need to direct the most patronising voice possible at me?

Firstly I was speaking in the general context and secondly you're issuing profundities and not backing them up. And if you're being talked down to, it is because you have warranted nothing more.

quote: ou say you're content with your situation and I've even stated that I wouldn't oppose allowing things to work out the same for those in your situation in the future as they did for you. And yet you clearly are bitter at me for not accepting the lot that was dealt to me.

I'm not bitter, I'm angry at lame, pretentious arguments. I take your argument to advocate the denial of the choice, PLEASE, do correct me where I am mistaken!

quote: I don't have a pet theory of my own I like to hear people give their own account of themselves. Perhaps I feel that has more credibility

You speak in the language of a listener but you seem to refuse to listen to the statement that circumcision is harmless. I'm sorry if you had a botched operation, but one does always assume competance and imo a few mishaps do not justify the procedure being denied.

	08-09-2004 05:49									#227
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quote: Why would anybody be proud of having skin removed from your manhood? It makes you less of a man, by definition.

You lose a few grammes of skin cells but you gain so, so much more!

	08-09-2004 05:53									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Awww diddums, poor Geronimo gets friction burns

no. Are you demonstrating your superior credibility now?

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Nothing I have said advocates the denial of that choice and the forceful imposition of circumcision. To have it done by default except where the parents state otherwise still leaves the choice.

It certainly does not! When was the choice made? suppose there is a culture that has arranged marriages at age 12 and a man forces himself on his new 12 year old bride with her parents blessing. did she ever get a choice?

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I want that choice open and circumcision to be recommended. As for your last sentence, I find that ironic after I told you the difference between descriptive and prescriptive. If you're trying to be prescriptive, honesty matters a hell of a lot. Descriptively, fine, but then you wouldn't be trying to tell others that what they are doing is wrong.

there is no irony. I simply recognize that the best judge of what is best for ones healthy body is oneself.

	08-09-2004 06:13									#229
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quote: no. Are you demonstrating your superior credibility now?

Do I need to?

quote: It certainly does not! When was the choice made? suppose there is a culture that has arranged marriages at age 12 and a man forces himself on his new 12 year old bride with her parents blessing. did she ever get a choice?

But at that age (newborn) it is the parents choice. Yet again you use a flawed example of someone with self-determination.

quote: there is no irony. I simply recognize that the best judge of what is best for ones healthy body is oneself.

So according to that logic, the age of consent should be reduced to 0, children should be allowed to drink and take drugs and not be made to go to school. Where a child does not have self-determination, parents are responsible for it, and make choices for the child in its interest.

	08-09-2004 06:25									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Do I need to?

please do. I value credibility as much as the next guy.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But at that age (newborn) it is the parents choice. Yet again you use a flawed example of someone with self-determination. So according to that logic, the age of consent should be reduced to 0, children should be allowed to drink and take drugs and not be made to go to school. Where a child does not have self-determination, parents are responsible for it, and make choices for the child in its interest.

Fortunately most choices unlike circumcision can be postponed so the individual can have decisions temporarily made by their parents and make their own decision when they come of age. What would you think of parents who had their daughter sterlized when she was a child? Would you think that should be legal even if religious practices were explicitly exempted from any legislation to ban it?

	08-09-2004 06:31									#231
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quote: please do. I value credibility as much as the next guy.

And here's me thinking you valued the content of an argument, not any superfluous quips therein.

quote: Fortunately most choices unlike circumcision can be postponed so the individual can have decisions temporarily made by their parents and make their own decision when they come of age.

But circumcisions performed years after birth can have nasty side effects.

quote: What would you think of parents who had their daughter sterlized when she was a child? Would you think that should be legal even if religious practices were explicitly exempted from any legislation to ban it?

No, regardless of religion. Like I said I value consistency so religion vs. secular demands are irrelevant, no rules for one not the other. Sterilisation is a measure which has a long term effect, negative shall we say unless specifically requested otherwise. That is not the case with circumcision. My advice to you now would be to summarise your argument in a coherent and logical form, instead of issuing flawed analogy after flawed analogy in an attempt to batter another.

	08-09-2004 06:33									#232
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quote: But circumcisions performed years after birth can have nasty side effects.

Either way it's a nasty effect.

	08-09-2004 06:33									#233
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I beg to differ

	08-09-2004 06:36									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I beg to differ

* Asher notes that you are the one that is begging, making you the b*tch.

See what losing your manhood can do to a man?

	08-09-2004 06:44									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Only public display of them will be banned

a little late on this, but JIHAD!.

	08-09-2004 06:47									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And here's me thinking you valued the content of an argument, not any superfluous quips therein.

handy thing about credibility is it is easily filed away for future reference.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But circumcisions performed years after birth can have nasty side effects. No, regardless of religion. Like I said I value consistency so religion vs. secular demands are irrelevant, no rules for one not the other. Sterilisation is a measure which has a long term effect, negative shall we say unless specifically requested otherwise. That is not the case with circumcision. My advice to you now would be to summarise your argument in a coherent and logical form, instead of issuing flawed analogy after flawed analogy in an attempt to batter another.

The 'flawed' analogies are useful because they narrow the discussion to the difference between those similar situations where we both agree and those in which we disagree. You appear to have just gone on record as saying that if a measure has long term possibly negative effect which is not specifially requested otherwise then you do not oppose regulation of such measures. Now we can discuss whether or not circumcision is inherently harmless. I'm ready to accept that it isn't inherently harmful even if only because some who undergo it do not object to the results. However to argue that it is inherently harmless is quite a different matter. If even one person is unhappy with the result or if any physiological deficiency can result from a 'successful' circumcision then it would not be intrinsically harmless. circumcision results will vary because the distribution of nerve endings in individuals can vary quite a bit. In some individuals there are more nerve endings in the foreskin than in all the rest of the penis combined. In others it can be quite a bit less. The variation is not unique to the genitals either. Given this uncertainty how can we be certain that the procedure is harmless? You have to be careful how you decide that the procedure is harmless because the same criteria applied to other situations could imply that procedures such as FGM are at least sometimes harmless as well.

	08-09-2004 06:54									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I don't buy your "it'll save millions of lives" stuff, Dr. Strangelove. As it is, the majority of American males are circumsized, yet the rates of HIV transmission are appalling in the US comapred to other western countries where the pracrise is not common. In Israel it's the opposite, but that just goes to show that HIV levels probably are not linked so closely to circumcision. There may be some prtoection in it, but I do not think the risk-benefit ratio is as massive as you state.

Americans are more studly than europeans, as everyone knows. Historically this was especially true of American gays. It was said that in the 1980s in the major urban concentration of gays that the average gay had more than 50 sexual contacts/year. This sort of sexual culture was responsible for the wildfire spread of HIV across America. The co-mingling of gay culture and the drug culture then spread the virus to the hetrosexual population.
The risk reduction yield from circumcision is about 50 to 75% according to ongoing studies done by the WHO in Africa.

quote: Plus I do not think giving poorly-trained doctors in third-world states more power to perform essentially un-necessary surgery on children is ever a good thing.

Africa is precisely the place that would benefit most from widespread infant circumcision. There are currently 25 million people infected in Africa. I believe that about 2 to 3 million become infected each year, and the number is growing. Imagine reducing that number by 50 to 75 %. We need to circumcise both adults and kids, and combine that with the use of condoms and a reduction in the rate of casual sex and multiple wives.

	08-09-2004 07:03									#238
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You seem to have changed your position.

I can say from personal experience that circumcision seems protective for VD.

In fact the practice became common in Australia after WWI and WWII when social diseases caused a lot of casualties amongst troops overseas. In WWI trench warfare in muddy trenches wasn't good for the health downstairs and in WWII fighting in the jungles confirmed the practice of "giving willy a shave" because of the tropical diseases including various nasty crotch rots.

You'll probably laugh at me but it's true - I suspect its also related to the fact senior wartime medicos tended to end up in senior positions in hospitals and health departments after the world wars. They thought nothing of shedding a foreskin.

	08-09-2004 07:46									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You lose a few grammes of skin cells but you gain so, so much more!

What do you gain? The ability to have a one-night stand that is a little bit safer than someone who's uncut? Congratulations, pervert, you've hit the jackpot.

And the idea that circumcision has anything to do with teenage pregnancy is the whackiest thing I've ever heard.

Having safe sex also reduces the chance of catching AIDS, but you can't FORCE people to have safe sex.

In any case, a ban on circumsicion seems a bit rash. I just hope that, as time goes on, more and more people choose to have their children as nature intended. I do remember hearing that fewer and fewer parents choose to have their children circumcised each year.

	08-09-2004 08:51									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse You seem to have changed your position. I can say from personal experience that circumcision seems protective for VD. In fact the practice became common in Australia after WWI and WWII when social diseases caused a lot of casualties amongst troops overseas. In WWI trench warfare in muddy trenches wasn't good for the health downstairs and in WWII fighting in the jungles confirmed the practice of "giving willy a shave" because of the tropical diseases including various nasty crotch rots. You'll probably laugh at me but it's true - I suspect its also related to the fact senior wartime medicos tended to end up in senior positions in hospitals and health departments after the world wars. They thought nothing of shedding a foreskin.

There's a little more scientific evidence supporting the claims now. The earlier studies were mostly badly flawed. OTOH the major study is not yet finished AFAIK. I still believe that monogamy and discouraging casual sex are still the best tactics. I also feel strongly that if you're going to advocate circumcision you ought to be up front about the risks. It offers relative protection, not absolute protection. I believe that in areas like Africa it's mandatory to advocate both approaches: mass circumcision, and monogamy.