09-09-2004 23:28									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Aren't you the unemployed web-design monkey?

That's got nothing to do with anything. Van Goegh, Gaugan, and others were penniless in their lifetime, and are considered among the greatest artists in human history. Not that I'm in their league.

quote: Creativity manifests itself in many ways. Problem-solving is one of them.

Okay, artistic creativity then.

	09-09-2004 23:29									#62
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I have no problem with legal sampling, I may not like the music but as long as it is done legally, my taste in music doesn't really matter.

I think sampling isn't very artistic, but otherwise let them copy from each other.

ACK!

	09-09-2004 23:29									#63
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* Adagio reads the thread title and the first line in the first post

That was about time that they started charging...


But I'd prefer them to started putting out 'fines' if more than 50% of the words in songs are swear words... that would take out the worst type of rappers, and give room for the better rappers...

	09-09-2004 23:31									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio * Adagio reads the thread title and the first line in the first post That was about time that they started charging... But I'd prefer them to started putting out 'fines' if more than 50% of the words in songs are swear words... that would take out the worst type of rappers, and give room for the better rappers...

"Humbug"

ACK!

	09-09-2004 23:31									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Okay, artistic creativity then.

And what would you know about my artistic creativity?

	09-09-2004 23:35									#66
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quote: You're a commie, you're not capable of rational thought.

Very mature. Don't you feel much better? A grown-up person acting like a 5-year old.

quote: They frequently are. See Tupac's "Changes" or VanillaIce's "Ice Ice Baby". They are copies of the most distinguishing parts of the song. Blatantly so.

Is "Ice Ice baby" anything like the Queen song in substance? Is Tupac's "changes"?

quote: Good for him. It's still sampling, and it's proof that it's not a big deal to obtain permission

and here comes the main thing:
DOES IT MATTER IN ANY WAY WRT THE QUALITY OF THE SONG?
does Sting's blessing improve the song? no no no. It's the same song.

	09-09-2004 23:37									#67
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Interesting.

I found P-diddy to be an extreme abuse of "sampling" music.

Perhaps it should be more like a song can not be sold for use beyond private listening, if it has samples from other artists.

What concerns me the most is things like Raves, where all the mixing is done from other artists materials. Are they going to start taxing a DJ for every record he brings to the club?

Also, free music. Are start up groups, or my favorite, video game remixes, going to have to shut down or start paying a royalty to Uzegi Komishiro every time a remix from the soundtrack to Streets of Rage 2 is played?

I don't like this ruling. Especially if the riff isn't easily recognizable.

	09-09-2004 23:42									#68
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As I see it, there are two separate strands of the discussion.

(1) Is sampling legal? Should it be? I personally don't give a flying **** about this one as I've become increasingly disillusioned/nihilistic/anarchistic in the past few years and don't particularly care about laws and crap.

(2) Is music with samples in it good? This one I do care about.

Please adress any discussion towards me only if it concerns the second one, please.

	09-09-2004 23:42									#69
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I, too, am mostly concerned about this, Ne_Omega.

	09-09-2004 23:44									#70
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to be fair, not all rap sucks. it's mostly the gangsta rap variant which focuses entirely on OMFG I'M SO RICH AND LOOK AT MY BLING BLING AND MY *****ES AND MY HOEZ AND YOU IZ TEH SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is the worst of it.

on the other hand, while the law really i don't have a problem with, i do see how it could be abused. NeOmega points out one of the big ones--what about Raves and Club Remixes?

	09-09-2004 23:50									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Very mature. Don't you feel much better? A grown-up person acting like a 5-year old.

It's frickin' true -- people with communist ideals don't understand humanity. They're idealists that need to have a dose of realism. I don't know how you cannot consider music theft invalid, unless you're of the camp which thinks that musicians are not human and don't need to eat, too.

quote: Is "Ice Ice baby" anything like the Queen song in substance? Is Tupac's "changes"?

Yes...

quote: and here comes the main thing: DOES IT MATTER IN ANY WAY WRT THE QUALITY OF THE SONG? does Sting's blessing improve the song? no no no. It's the same song.

Errm...that's not the point. Incase you forgot, the thread is about the legal implications behind the right get paid when someone steals your work to profit from it.

	09-09-2004 23:52									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's frickin' true -- people with communist ideals don't understand humanity. They're idealists that need to have a dose of realism.

Actually, we understand it a hell of a lot better than you. And I guarantee I know a hell of a lot more about real life than your pampered butt.

quote: I don't know how you cannot consider music theft invalid, unless you're of the camp which thinks that musicians are not human and don't need to eat, too.

Since most musicians don't own their own music anyway, they aren't being ripped off by fans. They were already ripped off by the music companies. Fans are ripping off the music companies, not the artists.

	09-09-2004 23:52									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed (2) Is music with samples in it good? This one I do care about.

I think you have to hold sampled art to a different standard than original art (even in the case of music, where much of what is considered 'original' is incredibly derivative.) If an original song is good, than that is an accomplishment. If a song uses sampled material, the end result must be significantly better than the original in order to be viewed as a successful artistic endeavor. Until then, it's just piggybacking.

Note that this means that a song built using samples can still be good to listen to, but not good as an artistic endeavor.

	09-09-2004 23:53									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, we understand it a hell of a lot better than you.

As clearly evidenced by all of the successful, large nations under communism.

quote: Since most musicians don't own their own music anyway, they aren't being ripped off by fans. They were already ripped off by the music companies. Fans are ripping off the music companies, not the artists.

This argument is a bunch of bull because it boils it down to "well it's not theft because the record companies own it".

	09-09-2004 23:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by dv8ed If a song uses sampled material, the end result must be significantly better than the original in order to be viewed as a successful artistic endeavor.

Not really, it just has to be used in an inovative way.

	09-09-2004 23:54									#76
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quote: Is "Ice Ice baby" anything like the Queen song in substance? Is Tupac's "changes"?

Of course it isn't, why do you think he tried - succesfully - to rip of Queen Bowie.
Without the riff the song never would have gone anywhere.

	09-09-2004 23:55									#77
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If it were used in an innovative way, the end result would be significantly better than the original...either that or complete crap, in which case it would still be a failure.

	09-09-2004 23:57									#78
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quote: It's frickin' true -- people with communist ideals don't understand humanity. They're idealists that need to have a dose of realism.

I am very realistic. You can ask anyone from any political ideological discussion ( you know, those you never participate in), from across the spectrum.

quote: I don't know how you cannot consider music theft invalid, unless you're of the camp which thinks that musicians are not human and don't need to eat, too.

Well, glory be, it seems that despite p2p networks, artists are still making more money than ever. Do we really have to go over this? most music I DL I simply can't buy locally.

quote: Yes...

Really? Well, as you claim later, this is not the point of the thread, anyway.

quote: Errm...that's not the point. Incase you forgot, the thread is about the legal implications behind the right get paid when someone steals your work to profit from it.

Oh, this is what the thread is about? because we seem to be mixing these two issues.

If this is the case, I think that this discussion is mostly over. We have different ideologies in mind, it's pointless to argue about it.

	09-09-2004 23:57									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher As clearly evidenced by all of the successful, large nations under communism.

This isn't the place for a cap-com debate.

quote: This argument is a bunch of bull because it boils it down to "well it's not theft because the record companies own it".

You keep squirming around whenever your argument gots knocked down. This wasn't your argument. Your argument was that artists need to eat and a place to sleep also. Sampling or downloading music has very little effect on this, since the musicians don't own their own music and thus are not getting ripped off.

It may be stealing, but people aren't stealing from artists and thus your arugment that it's taking food from their mouths is invalid.

	09-09-2004 23:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Is "Ice Ice baby" anything like the Queen song in substance? Is Tupac's "changes"?

First time I heard "Ice,Ice Baby" and several times afteroards, I thought I was gonna hear Under Pressure.

So yes, it is.

ACK!

	09-09-2004 23:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This isn't the place for a cap-com debate.

Particularly since it's a joke of a debate. Communists live in a world free of greed, the real world doesn't. Quite simple stuff.

quote: It may be stealing

It is stealing. That is my argument, that is my point, and I thank you for conceding it so ungracefully.

	10-09-2004 00:00									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski First time I heard "Ice,Ice Baby" and several times afteroards, I thought I was gonna hear Under Pressure. So yes, it is. ACK!

Exactly...they play Under Pressure a lot at the gym I go to, and at the beginning I keep thinking it's going to be Ice, Ice Baby.

(Different generation)

	10-09-2004 00:01									#83
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undre pressure >>> ice ice baby.

	10-09-2004 00:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am very realistic.

How do musicians make money if their work is not sold?

quote: Well, glory be, it seems that despite p2p networks, artists are still making more money than ever. Do we really have to go over this? most music I DL I simply can't buy locally.

This isn't an argument -- artists are making money because people still buy music. If you don't buy music (that is, if it's not illegal to steal it), they would make no money.

	10-09-2004 00:02									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That is my argument, that is my point, and I thank you for conceding it so ungracefully.

It's your fourth argument, after your first three were destroyed. Nice how you claim victory after having already struck out.

	10-09-2004 00:04									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's your fourth argument, after your first three were destroyed. Nice how you claim victory after having already struck out.

No, you're just not bright enough to connect the dots.

The overriding argument is music theft is...theft.

You "destroyed" some examples of this argument by saying record companies own the rights to the music, not the musicians, and therefore it was a bad argument. It would be a stunning argument of yours, if you had thought it out a bit more. Who gives the musicians their money in the first place? Hint: it doesn't grow on trees.

No, Che, the entire point of my argument is sampling wholesale is a form of theft. That's what this is about, and that's what you just conceded.

	10-09-2004 00:04									#87
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dv8ed, my main concern is with the quality of the end product.

I think the most highly evolved "people using other people's music" concept is what's been done in Jamaica for the past 25 years or so. A producer makes a backing track, a "riddim", onto which dozens, sometimes even hundreds of artist record vocal and sometimes additional instrumental tracks.

Neither side in such an arrangement can be said to have been a wholly complete artist in themselves. However, the fierce competetiveness between the producers (who have to get people to make versions on their riddims to make money), the artists (who know there are dozens of others trying to make music on the same backing track, it being really cheap) and the sound systems (ie. DJ sets, who want the best, freshest and most exclusive material for their shows) has constantly hurtled the music forward and got it to scale new heights all the time.

In such a situation does it matter how much the individuals are putting in in terms of artistic contribution?

	10-09-2004 00:06									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How do musicians make money if their work is not sold?

By suing people who can make it sellable?

	10-09-2004 00:06									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed undre pressure >>> ice ice baby.

I used to think so, but I listened to Robert Van Winkle when he was on The Surreal World. He's really embarressed by his Vanilla Ice period. He blew up when he roommates kept teasing him about it. Then they ended up at a kareoke bar, and the ladies startd dong the song, and the whole crowd started getting into it, and got him to do the song. It was a lot less processed and sterile and actually kinda fun.

I'm not saying it's art, but it was quite enjoyable.

	10-09-2004 00:07									#90
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Under pressure sucks, and so does Ice Ice Baby. Mercury and Ice are on the same level of embarassing crapness.

There. Problem solved.