10-09-2004 00:08									#91
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd By suing people who can make it sellable?

How could they sue someone if music theft is not theft?

	10-09-2004 00:08									#92
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quote: How do musicians make money if their work is not sold?

A) Their work is sold. p2ps never stopped this, The vast majority of people who p2p buy music as well.
B) Gigs, videos played on TV, etc.

quote: This isn't an argument -- artists are making money because people still buy music. If you don't buy music (that is, if it's not illegal to steal it), they would make no money.

A) they would make money, as I explained earlier.
B) Even though it is practically legal to p2p it, since there is no enforcement, people still buy CDs. That's reality. songs are downloaded at all times, and the same people who can download the songs, also buy the CDs. Your belief, full of "realism", is that people would grab an infinite amount if they would be presented with something for free fails miserably in the real world.

	10-09-2004 00:09									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, Che, the entire point of my argument is sampling wholesale is a form of theft. That's what this is about, and that's what you just conceded.

Argument 1: Sampling isn't creative, untrue

Argument 2: This has always been theft, untrue

Argument 3: This is stealing from artists, untrue

Argument 4: It's theft, conceded long before you ever made the point.

Congratualtions on your superior logic.

	10-09-2004 00:09									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Under pressure sucks, and so does Ice Ice Baby. Mercury and Ice are on the same level of embarassing crapness. There. Problem solved.

I'm continually amazed how music critics like you get jobs.

Honestly, who buys publications where you hear people with such horribly bad taste tell people what is good and bad?

Music is a personal things, and every single music critic -- without fail -- is an enormous tw*t.

	10-09-2004 00:10									#95
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quote: I used to think so, but I listened to Robert Van Winkle when he was on The Surreal World. He's really embarressed by his Vanilla Ice period. He blew up when he roommates kept teasing him about it. Then they ended up at a kareoke bar, and the ladies startd dong the song, and the whole crowd started getting into it, and got him to do the song. It was a lot less processed and sterile and actually kinda fun. I'm not saying it's art, but it was quite enjoyable.

I hear he's making hardcore rock these days, is it so?

	10-09-2004 00:11									#96
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He was, don't know if he still is.

	10-09-2004 00:12									#97
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Argument 1: Sampling isn't creative, untrue

Still a matter of opinion. It's untrue that it IS creative. "Ice, Ice Baby" samples heavily, and for that reason is one of the most unoriginal and least creative songs I've ever heard.

Sampling, by definition, is:

quote: sam·ple Audio pronunciation of "sampling" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smpl) n. A usually digitized audio segment taken from an original recording and inserted, often repetitively, in a new recording.

Since all you're doing is repeating something already done, it is not original or creative. Scratching a sample is a different story.

quote: Argument 2: This has always been theft, untrue

Never said that.

quote: Argument 3: This is stealing from artists, untrue

It is true. Artists get their money from record companies, based on number of sales. Plus, what about indy artists?

quote: Congratualtions on your superior logic.

Accepted.

	10-09-2004 00:15									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A) Their work is sold. p2ps never stopped this, The vast majority of people who p2p buy music as well. B) Gigs, videos played on TV, etc.

If it wasn't illegal to download it, far less people would do it. There would be painfully easy services for downloading and burning CDs of free music.

The reason p2p doesn't inhibit sales is because many people are scared off by it being illegal, or find it too much of a hassle.

If you legalize music downloads, it'll f*ck everything up.

quote: A) they would make money, as I explained earlier.

No, this is nonsense because you're assuming people's attitudes towards buying music wouldn't be changed when they find out they can legally own it without paying for it. Which is kinda ridiculous if you think about it...

	10-09-2004 00:22									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed In such a situation does it matter how much the individuals are putting in in terms of artistic contribution?

In a situation like that, where there is an entire culture built around a distributed creative process, then it doesn't matter in the least. But that isn't the case in a song like 'Ice Ice Baby'. Queen put out a completed work in 'Under Pressure'. They weren't out to provide a base that others could work from, they were out to put a song on the radio. When Vanilla Ice comes in and rips a part of their creative work, it is not following Queen's intent for the use of their work. While it has no bearing on the final quality of Ice Ice Baby, I think it does have a bearing on Vanilla Ice as an artist.

It would be somewhat similar (not too much, though, so nobody start any stupid threadjacks over it) to an open source software project. If a group builds a quality application from scratch, they have put significant work into it and their work is impressive. If somebody else comes along and forks the project into a new release with only a few minor changes, their work is not nearly as impressive. Your Jamaican example would be more along the lines of an application being assembled from a library of code objects...in which case, the application may be just as good, but the credit goes to everybody who contributed.

Like I said, I'm not making any claims on the actual quality of the end result, just the abilities of the people who are creating it.

	10-09-2004 00:30									#100
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Odd metaphor follows:

Think of it like this: is it more impressive for somebody to make a table in a woodshop or in the middle of a forest with no tools? If the tables end up the same quality, you can probably say that the second guy was more impressive. On the other hand, if the table built in the woodshop is magnificent and the one built in the woods is nothing more than one big log on four smaller ones, the craftsman in the woodshop is at least as impressive as the one in the woods.

	10-09-2004 00:40									#101
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just an aside...

have yall ever listened to songs that happen to sample the same thing (which happens a lot in rap) yet sound completely different? One DJ recently used all the samples used for Jay-Z's Black Album but his remix album sounds nothing like the original. His point was to show that even using the same exact samples, you can come up with completely different music.

	10-09-2004 00:52									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Music is a personal things, and every single music critic -- without fail -- is an enormous tw*t.

Every person who discriminates with regard to music is a music critic.


If you do not possess, listen to, or enjoy without distinction or exception, each and every musical act, performance, piece of music, recording, you are a 'music critic'.

Ergo, YOU are an enormous....


But this has long been evident.

After all, you like 'Matchbox 20'.






It might not be too late. Help may still be available.

	10-09-2004 00:57									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's frickin' true -- people with communist ideals don't understand humanity. They're idealists that need to have a dose of realism. I don't know how you cannot consider music theft invalid, unless you're of the camp which thinks that musicians are not human and don't need to eat, too.

If he needs to eat, let him do work that he can get money from. If making music isn't such work, find another job.

	10-09-2004 00:57									#104
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Every person who discriminates with regard to music is a music critic.

The obvious implication was that the people who consider themselves music critics and write in magazines, etc. is what I meant.

quote: Ergo, YOU are an enormous....

No, dude, I'm not -- you are for the dumbest argument in a thread full of dumb arguments.

The intent of the statement was obvious to those who possess any intellectual ability at all. Suspiciously, it escaped you...

	10-09-2004 00:59									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How do musicians make money if their work is not sold?

By doing something other than music. Duh!

	10-09-2004 01:00									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist By doing something other than music. Duh!

Obviously! What a solution you have come up with!

Dispatch the scribes, let us write this one down for the ages...

	10-09-2004 01:01									#107
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quote: If it wasn't illegal to download it, far less people would do it. There would be painfully easy services for downloading and burning CDs of free music.

Do you really believe this? Ask each and every person that downloads music on apolyton, if they buy records. I am sure that the reply for the vast majority of them wil be a sound 'yes'.

quote: No, this is nonsense because you're assuming people's attitudes towards buying music wouldn't be changed when they find out they can legally own it without paying for it. Which is kinda ridiculous if you think about it...

AGAIN. ask people here in apolyton. And I am sure that the vast majority of people here have never enountered anyone to check their music. I see no reason why this would be different from the general public.

Make it legal to download, keep "industrial" ripping banned. That's the ticket, really. Music sales won't drop, at leasnt not in any rate that would discourage people from making music. OTOH, hundreds of millions of people will enjoy a wider variety of music. Hell they already do.

	10-09-2004 01:04									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Do you really believe this? Ask each and every person that downloads music on apolyton, if they buy records. I am sure that the reply for the vast majority of them wil be a sound 'yes'.

So you think the average Apolytoner is representative of the behavior of most people in the world?

quote: AGAIN. ask people here in apolyton. And I am sure that the vast majority of people here have never enountered anyone to check their music. I see no reason why this would be different from the general public.

Don't you think the amount of disposable income people have on a computer gaming site might be higher than normal?

	10-09-2004 01:06									#109
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Like it or not, we live in an approximately capitalist society. If you can't make a living off what you do, you do something else.

	10-09-2004 01:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Like it or not, we live in an approximately capitalist society. If you can't make a living off what you do, you do something else.

Very astute observation. Gold star.

	10-09-2004 01:16									#111
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And you made fun of the commies? You're sounding like one yourself.

	10-09-2004 01:18									#112
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While Asher is definately a very smart kid, and I generally don't have any problem with him, he's being a right ***** in this thread.

	10-09-2004 01:18									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The obvious implication .........is what I meant. The intent of the statement was obvious....

Oh dear, I'm sorry, I don't deal in the obvious- I leave that to culture-free geeks.




Of course, if you were aware of anything outside of the geekspace you inhabit, then you'd realize that sampling/plagiarism/unattributed quotes/referencing has been going on since time immemorial:

"In his essay In Defence of Plagiarism, Christopher Hitchens offers an amendment to an established definition of artistic 'theft':

A good rule of thumb for young plagiarists starting out in life might be the one set down by George Moore. 'Taking something from one man and making it worse is plagiarism'. To 'making it worse' one could add 'or leaving it exactly the same'.

Given that there has been a number of high-profile 'appropriations' of ideas in recent times - instances in which creative thinking has been duplicated with a suprising degree of openness - it is instructive to examine what exactly the implications are when an artist or a writer cries "theft."

Hitchens, after giving examples of occasions when he himself became both accuser and accused (the latter instance being resolved to his satisfaction, although, he adds "I still wake up whimpering about it"), approaches the matter of definition with extreme caution:

"If you think you know what plagiarism is, you are making a very large claim - the fact that you know originality when you see it."

...."relatively shattering" examples of occasions when originality came into question - even such canonical standards of literature and oratory as T.S. Eliot's 'The Waste Land' and Martin Luther King's momentous 'I Have a Dream' speech are shown to have relied, rather heavily in part, on certain unattributed 'source material'. Science too, Hitchens notes, has not been immune:

Sir Isaac Newton ...took great credit for propounding a law of planetary motion . This was to the outrage of his rival Robert Hooke, who maintained that Newton had drawn on his work as well as that of others...Newton made no direct admission, but did tactfully say that:

'if I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants'.

Unfortunately for Newton this memorable mitigating aphorism had itself appeared thirty years before in a collection of proverbs by George Herbert (remarkably, Herbert too had 'borrowed' the phrase from another source).'

http://www.recirca.com/backissues/c...rveydlong.shtml


No I know it's a bit of a risk expecting you to know who T. S. Eliot is, or George Herbert, possibly even Hooke, but you might just have heard of Isaac Newton and Martin Luther King- or are they not 'obvious' enough?

	10-09-2004 01:22									#114
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God, molly, you are such a b!tch at times.

	10-09-2004 01:26									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist And you made fun of the commies? You're sounding like one yourself.

Do you know what communism is?

I don't know of too many commies who support the concept of intellectual property being inforced.

	10-09-2004 01:26									#116
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How often do rock/alternative bands sample rappers? I wonder how theyd react.

	10-09-2004 01:29									#117
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In regards to sampling not being creative...

Evidence A:

www.soundclick.com/bands/0/phillysouljahmusic.htm

The first minute or so of the original song is on there as well as the first minute of the dj remix i described which uses the same source song yet flips the samples differently.

Clearly, even with using the exact same source (and the same Jay-Z vocals for that matter too), you can come up with very different songs. the samples are recognizable yet it all sounds different and those are two distinct songs.

	10-09-2004 01:30									#118
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Oh dear, I'm sorry, I don't deal in the obvious- I leave that to culture-free geeks.

You should just let the bigboys handle it, then...

quote: Of course, if you were aware of anything outside of the geekspace you inhabit, then you'd realize that sampling/plagiarism/unattributed quotes/referencing has been going on since time immemorial:

And if you've read and actually comprehended anything in this thread, you'd realize that was never my argument. I really don't care about history behind sampling, nor do I find it relevant at all.

Let me say that I do appreciate your Trivial Pursuit excellency, but while you have a good memory, you have the analytical ability of Fez with the genuine intelligence of Wiglaf. You can just write better than any of them, and hope by throwing around constant references and statements from history that you'd confuse your opponent or force them into submission...

It doesn't work with everyone.

In fact, once anyone ignores the heap of irrelevant bullshit in your last post, they'd realize you've skirted around the whole issue of legality completely. I believe the term for what you just did is "strawman".

Be a dear and look that one up, and provide the history for that as well...

	10-09-2004 01:32									#119
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quote: So you think the average Apolytoner is representative of the behavior of most people in the world?

Maybe, maybe not. My guess is as good as yours.

quote: Don't you think the amount of disposable income people have on a computer gaming site might be higher than normal?

Erm, no, we have a whole bunch of brokeass students, here. I don't think that we're super rich or something.

	10-09-2004 01:33									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Sampling, by definition, is not creative...

Never your argument? It was your first friggan post in this thread.