01-10-2004 18:30									#241
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quote: The bottom line is, Gruden has won the Super Bowl, and that's what it's all about.

I really don't think that proves anything. I say you put Dungy into Tampa in 2002 and he wins the SB too. It's like saying Joe Torre is a HOF manager for winning the World Series with a team that Dallas Green could manage to a championship.

edit: And head coaches that don't win the Super Bowl aren't considered bad coaches. Marv Levy just went into the Hall of Fame and I think many would consider him a better coach than, say, Barry Switzer who has won a SuperBowl.

	01-10-2004 18:35									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I really don't think that proves anything. I say you put Dungy into Tampa in 2002 and he wins the SB too.

Maybe... maybe not. While I would agree that a trained monkee could probably get the Yankees into the playoffs, and maybe even win a World Series... Head Coaches in football have far more impact on the team then a manager in Baseball. Teams with the best talent do lose... Football is more of a team sport than baseball.

	01-10-2004 18:50									#243
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quote: Head Coaches in football have far more impact on the team then a manager in Baseball.

While that is true, Gruden hasn't really shown me anything. That Defense was simply amazing and I'm sure a number of coaches could have used that weapon to win a Superbowl (*cough* Brian Billick )

	01-10-2004 18:54									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui While that is true, Gruden hasn't really shown me anything. That Defense was simply amazing and I'm sure a number of coaches could have used that weapon to win a Superbowl (*cough* Brian Billick )

Again... a lot of truth in that... but they still have to use the weapons they have been given right. And the fact is, Gruden did win one. With similar talent... Dungy couldn't

	01-10-2004 19:01									#245
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I actually think that they added some players after Dungy left in that offseason. It wasn't the exact same team as Dungy left. The core was the same, but some of the role players (who really are what win championships) were different.

But, of course it ALWAYS happens that way. They always can the guy that brought them there before the team makes it big (such as Showalter with the Yankees). I've always thought that the team would have won with the old coach in those situations.

Because, as we see now, Gruden has brought in his guys and they really, really, really suck. Hell, even last year they were pretty bad.

Oh, and of course, when in Oakland, Gruden never led his team to the Superbowl, but Callahan did. Does that mean Callahan is the better coach?

	01-10-2004 20:59									#246
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You're forgetting something very important about Dungy, Imran. He's not an offensive mind. He never called the plays while he was in Tampa - the offensive coordinators did, and before Gruden came in, a new OC was a yearly occurrance. We would not have won the Super Bowl in 2002 even with that defense because with Dungy, the offense would not have held up its end. Without Gruden's scheming, we get crushed by the Eagles (again) and we're not talking about the monkey on the Eagles' back...

quote: Because, as we see now, Gruden has brought in his guys and they really, really, really suck. Hell, even last year they were pretty bad.

Why were we bad last year? Keyshawn being an ass, and injuries. Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles, Mike Alstott, Joe Jurevicius. And it's the same story this year, only this time we have arrogant holdouts to worry about as well. When we play a game next year when Garner, Galloway, Jurevicius, Pittman, Dudley (our pass-catching TE who we just lost for two months) and McCardell (or whoever replaces him) are all healthy and available, and we struggle then, THEN you can say we suck.

quote: Oh, and of course, when in Oakland, Gruden never led his team to the Superbowl, but Callahan did. Does that mean Callahan is the better coach?

• I firmly believe if not for the Snow Bowl ruling, it would have been the Raiders and not the Patriots beating the Rams in the Super Bowl that year.
  
• Callahan had essentially the same core in 2003 and he fell flat on his ass. Why? Because he was carried by players' career years the year before and he learned absolutely nothing from the well-deserved beating we put on him in the Super Bowl (translation: RUN THE GODDAMN BALL). Hence, there is no way you can make a case that Callahan's a better coach than Gruden.

	01-10-2004 21:21									#247
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quote: We would not have won the Super Bowl in 2002 even with that defense because with Dungy, the offense would not have held up its end.

Um... like I've shown the offense wasn't that much better in 2002 than in 2001, and the offense in 2000 was better than in 2002.

quote: Why were we bad last year? Keyshawn being an ass, and injuries. Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles, Mike Alstott, Joe Jurevicius. And it's the same story this year, only this time we have arrogant holdouts to worry about as well. When we play a game next year when Garner, Galloway, Jurevicius, Pittman, Dudley (our pass-catching TE who we just lost for two months) and McCardell (or whoever replaces him) are all healthy and available, and we struggle then, THEN you can say we suck.

Other teams don't have injuries? It's a fact of life in football and you have to deal with them. The good teams get by with injuries. Sorry, but if sooo many people get injured under Gruden's watch, maybe it's because he doesn't train them well enough so that they avoid injuries. Some coaches have lower level of injuries because their training conditions the players better.

And holdouts and suspending players for the year for no absolute reason is a problem of the management and falls squarely on Gruden who pushed out one of the best GMs in the league (ie, Rich McKay) for his power trips.

quote: I firmly believe if not for the Snow Bowl ruling, it would have been the Raiders and not the Patriots beating the Rams in the Super Bowl that year.

I seriously doubt it. The Pats won because the Rams didn't seem to take them seriously (partly because they had really no stars on the team). A Raiders team that was star-laden would not have been dismissed.

quote: Hence, there is no way you can make a case that Callahan's a better coach than Gruden.

That was kind of my point . Callahan is not better than Gruden for simply getting to the SuperBowl in Oakland while Gruden did not. And Gruden is not better than Dungy in winning the Superbowl where Dungy did not.

All things being equal, if I had a team, I'd take Dungy to lead it before I'd ask Gruden to do so.

	01-10-2004 21:26									#248
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quote: All things being equal, if I had a team, I'd take Dungy to lead it before I'd ask Gruden to do so.

Ditto. I felt bad when Tampa Bay won after his team got taken away from him. However, I do agree that Gruden is a better Offensive coach and Dunge had not put together an all to impressive squad for Tampa Bay, thus Gruden did some nice work with those boys.

Still, there are reasons you don't have one coach. Dungee would be my head coach over Gruden still, as I think Gruden is a pig headed alcoholic jackass (though that is mostly Al Davis' fault).

	02-10-2004 00:36									#249
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Well, there are two things going on here.

1. Objective measure of coaching effectiveness. I say a Super Bowl ring qualifies. That doesn't make those coaches the best, but it does (indisputably IMHO) mean they can get the job done.

2. Let's play GM. I'd definitely choose Dungy over Chucky. This is in part because as GM, I want a team player with leadership qualities, not some A-type jerk who's going to try getting me fired after we (inevitably) disagree.

Last thing -- Sorry, but you play the hand you're dealt. Tampa Bay DOES suck this year. The Beloved Bears DO suck this season. The Dolphins DO suck this season. They all have key players who are MIA. But they don't have excuses. That's what happens when you play in the Big Leagues.

	02-10-2004 00:37									#250
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The Niners Suk this year too! But we have salary cap excuses, can we count those? Our owner was a fewl, I think we are still paying for some referees

	02-10-2004 01:27									#251
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I don't really think any coach is worse than Martz. Even though I agree with him on somethings that other disagree with him on, he still is the worst play caller in the NFL.

	02-10-2004 01:40									#252
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Since I usually take Bulger in the fantasy leagues, I have no problem with Martz calling 70 passes a game

	02-10-2004 01:50									#253
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Yeah, Martz is bad as a gameday coach, but he's a fabulous offensive mind. He just can't call a game.

	02-10-2004 01:51									#254
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I don't either. It's the calls like the squible kick against NO that I really disagree with.

	03-10-2004 04:43									#255
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Martz better start winning some games if he wants to keep his job. At least they are playing SF this week

	03-10-2004 04:54									#256
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Look at all the talent on the Rams. Those guys have a few more productive years left. Martz should be doing much better than he is, but because the Rams have so much talent (and seem to have a good ability to aquire it) they will continue to at least be mediocre, and mediocre teams sell tickets. That's all owners and managers care about.

	03-10-2004 19:37									#257
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You would think that Faulk is too old based on the few times he gets him the ball...

	03-10-2004 19:41									#258
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Have you seen him this year? I don't think that's true at all. He has made some amazing conversions for example where I think few backs could have. LBs are still all over him though. It's amazing. That's a huge reason why Bulger has been so successfull and Martz keeps to the air.

	03-10-2004 19:45									#259
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I've been following the Rams closely because I have Bulger in a fantasy league... and as much as I like the air circus, they just aren't running enough. You see defenses just lining up for the pass... ignoring the run.
Faulk has plenty left in him, but you would never know because he barely gets the ball anymore.

	03-10-2004 19:56									#260
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Well if you look at the game against the Saints. They had 3 line backers in on just about every possible running play and they were watching Faulk like a hawk. Martz was completely justified in going to the air for most of the game.

The game against Atlanta I didn't see. It's kind of hard to run against blitzing CBs. That loss wasn't really Faulks fault. Bulger fumbled and threw an interception. The game against Arizona Faulk went over 100 yards.

	04-10-2004 01:41									#262
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Colts

Now, if the Rams can win tonight, then all of my football teams will have won this weekend.

	04-10-2004 04:34									#263
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I'd like to wring Walt Coleman's neck right about now. Thanks for handing Denver the game on a silver platter, *******!

* reismark sighs

Ah well. I guess I'll take solace in the refreshing fact that the New Orleans Saints still suck.

	04-10-2004 04:39									#264
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quote: Originally posted by reismark I'd like to wring Walt Coleman's neck right about now. Thanks for handing Denver the game on a silver platter, *******! * reismark sighs Ah well. I guess I'll take solace in the refreshing fact that the New Orleans Saints still suck.

Yeah, but Tampa Bay buccan sucks!



ACK!

	04-10-2004 05:38									#265
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I the colts

	04-10-2004 07:50									#266
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What the hell is up with this week?

Titans are 1-3 after losing to the Chargers (and the Titans threw 58 times), Giants (now an amazing 3-1) beat Green Bay (who go to 1-3), Atlanta are 4-0, Arizona beat New Orleans and Emmitt Smith gets a 100 yard rushing game, and San Francisco scored some points.

Meh.

All I can say is that the Colts are going into the rest of the season with a ton of momentum after beating the Titans, Green Bay and Jacksonville.

	04-10-2004 07:56									#267
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Titans were without McNair. something I did not know before I made my picks (for work- not here.we can win up to $200 at work)

as for the Colts. I really don't love the Colts. But i have been a huge fan of Peyton Manning since he came into the league. I want them to win this year, because Manning deserves one. I hate to see such a good QB not win the superbowl (like Marino)

Why is Manning so good? Just look at last weeks game. Did anyone see him milk that clock down to 2:00 minutes in the 4th quarter of that game? He had everyone lined up and was pretending he was going to run a play at around 2:30 remaining. And held the line in place for 30 seconds. You have to credit the O-line as well. Not easy doing that without a false start penalty. He is a smart QB, that's why I want to see him win. He can run an excellent 2 minute drill. And is great at calling audibles. His hurry up offense is excellent as well.

	04-10-2004 09:07									#268
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Jacksonville, even though they lost looked GOOD today. Great defense and Leftwich was passing really well. When that running game gets working that offense will look nice later this season.

Oh, and Atlanta 4-0!



Vick didn't have a good game, but Dunn/Duckett played well and that swarming, dominating defense played well AGAIN. They could be the best defense in the NFC!

	04-10-2004 09:18									#269
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Btw, the most AMAZING thing that happened today was in the Green Bay / NY Giants game.

Brett Farve suffers a concussion
He stays out for 2 plays
Before the doctor can say he can't play again, he waives HIMSELF onto the field
On 4th and 5
And throws a 35 yard TD pass on his FIRST play after coming back in
And then is held out for the rest of the game because he's had a concussion for the past 5 minutes.

This man is simply UNREAL!

	04-10-2004 11:28									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident as for the Colts. I really don't love the Colts. But i have been a huge fan of Peyton Manning since he came into the league. I want them to win this year, because Manning deserves one. I hate to see such a good QB not win the superbowl (like Marino) Why is Manning so good? Just look at last weeks game. Did anyone see him milk that clock down to 2:00 minutes in the 4th quarter of that game? He had everyone lined up and was pretending he was going to run a play at around 2:30 remaining. And held the line in place for 30 seconds. You have to credit the O-line as well. Not easy doing that without a false start penalty. He is a smart QB, that's why I want to see him win. He can run an excellent 2 minute drill. And is great at calling audibles. His hurry up offense is excellent as well.

And he's also a pr1ck, which is an excellent reason for me to root against them every week.