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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
If you stopped torturing them we would send them back quite happily. |
The Russians never said they were torturing them. Shouldn't you just extradite them in exchange for a promise they won't be tortured? Russia is a democracy after all and torture isn't legal there. You're obstructing justice for acts of terrorism over hear say.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
Serb I found this site in English about terrorism involving Chechyna ,but I really have had lousy luck finding anything even remotely detailed in english about these terrorists.
Even if the above link gets the facts all correct it would be nice to have a source a bit more detailed. I see pravda has an english language version. Would that be a better option for getting details about the conflict than CNN? I have no idea as to how credible they are these days. What Russian source would be the most credible? |
Well, it took some time to find such site, but I guess I've found one. I've examinated the section of this site dedicated to the history of crisis, and should say it's pretty ok.
Everyone who wish to know the opposite view of the Chechen war (the opposite to most of western sources), should check this Chechen site. It's pretty long read, but I think it worth it:
http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.ph...werseng&lng=eng
just click the "Chechen crisis. Main events"
or skip "to reader" section (which is not recomended) and follow directly to http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.ph...werseng&lng=eng
This site also contains detailed info about Chechen history, traditions, culture and other things about Chechnya, main page:
http://www.chechnyafree.ru/chechenhistory.htm
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Ah, I didn't know a Taliban-like group is behind this. So this group wants to invade Russia to forcibly convert people to their religion, not fight for independence?
I have no idea what Chechnyans think, I'm just looking at events and wondering why Chechnyans are willing to die to get Russia out of Chechnya.
I guess it's so they can invade Russia to convert the infidels. Is that Putin's explanation? |
The invasion was of Dagestan another autonominous republic in Russia neighboring Chechyna. I doubt they had illusions about converting all the infidels in russia Abd-ar-Rahman style. Rather I suspect they felt cocky because Yelstin had caved in so completely a few years earlier and I suppose they hoped to incite the muslim inhabitants of Dagestan to rise up and join their little wahabbist enclave.
In any event they weren't gunning for independance at that point. They already had it.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
If its the case that we would extradite them but for the fact that they will be tortured we lock em up indefinatley.
There has to be good evidence your a nasty bastard though. |
Well, imagine a Saddam or Osama or some of their high-ranked minions were granted asylum in Russia and Russians refused to extradite them, because of:
1) they might be beaten by their convoy or tortued in US, becuase it is know that Americans hate them.
2) they might be executed (becuse aside Russia, US has death penalty)
3) Russians demand a good evidences that these a nasty bastards (good enough for Russians, in other words no matter what kind of evidences you bring, Russians could always say- "it's not good enough for us").
How would you react?
Is it fair attitude? Is that how allies should act?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
We wouldn't send Osama bin laden to the US if he were to face the Death penalty.
If you stop torturing people on a large enough scale that it is reported extensivley then we will extradite them.
We do extardite people to many countries however they do tend to have internationaly accepted standards of justice. which lets face it Russia at the present time doesn't |
Blah...blah...blah...a pity excuses to cover terrorists. Someday all those bastards who call London their home seet home now, will pay you for you kindness.
p.s. And to your knowledge, in accordance with Russian constitution tortues are forbiden. And its amusing that you give shelter to f*ckers who murdered, tortured to death, cut throats of innocent people, becuse of your suspicion (based on what?) that those f*ckers could be tortued in Russia.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
Well I don't think the vast makority of people are happy that people who may be terrorists are in the UK and can't be sent back. But we have laws and they are followed, are judiciary is independant and doesn't do what the govt tells them.
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You must be kidding me. In accordance with British "law", Zakaev, who was in charge of one of the gangs that invaded Russian Dagestan in 1999 and who personaly executed captured Dagestani cops and also responsible for murder of civilians there- just participated in civil war. How the hell the military invasion launched against Russian Federation from Chechen territory in 1999 could be a civil war, considering that we signed a peace treaty with so-called government of Chechen republic in 1996?
Do tell me your judges are independent, they fulfill the will of your political leadership who just a bunch of hypocrites.
quote:
Russia has signed the convention on human rights but doesn't appear willing to enforce it, when you do you can have them all back |
Says who? Aren't you the ones who invaded sovereign country recently, thus violated UN Chapter? No British troops in Iraq anymore? Perhaps, they act like angels there and locals just love them?
Yep, you are qualified for lecturing Russians about treaties and conventions.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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You don't get. It's not about tortues, death penalty (there is no death penalty in Russia, btw) or something of that of kind of crap excuses.
In case of Zakaev (the ****er whom CNN recently shown in role of an expert about situation in Chechnya) your court found his action as legitimate (hate this word, never spell it right), because he participated in civil war from British point of view. Once again, how the hell a military invasion of separatists (if you don't like the word "terrorists"), launched from the Chechen territory in 1999 against Russian Federation, can be a CIVIL WAR, considering that we signed a peace treaty with their government in 1996?
If you are so afraid that those glorious people will be treated badly in Russia and wouldn't face a fair trial, send your observers goddamnit. I believe huge number of persons who wanted in Russia for terrorisms and other crimes are hiding in UK now. Extradite a single one, and send your observers who will inspect his treatment in Russian jail everyday if needed. Do it. If Russians would tortue him, just say- f*ck it, you'll get nobody now. But instead of this you keep your- blah...blah...blah... we think these good people will be treated badly.
When was the last time when suspect extradited from UK was treated badly in Russia. Bring me an example. You can't, because you never actually tried.
Last edited by Serb on 10-09-2004 at 16:17
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:23
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Kid,
"But a narrow group owns the media. This elite group gets to choose what words will be used and influence public opinion. It's not exactly freedom of speech."
Wrong. This is the problem mostly of US media. It's becoming a huge problem of major Euro media as well, maybe we're at the same level already. But in here, news media is not a business. Thus it has no agendas. It's 100% stating the facts and leaving the rest up to the viewer. Now, there are of course experts letting us know the history and what is likely to happen etc etc.. but they also are professionals usually, that rely on facts, not their opinions. Of course, there are some rotten apples always. Like in this case for example, we had expert on this Chechenya conflict. And then we had military expert. Military expert was opinion take, like 'so what can Russia do?' and it was pretty much like it went down later on 'nothing, except attack' blaa blaa etc. NO opinions is what I'm trying to say. Journalist is not supposed to make a question like 'so whose fault is this?' 'who started this?' etc. Or disguise these questions with different words, often done by most media. Because in a conflict like this, you can't blame a single person, or side, it's complex, and over simplifications are to be avoided. The thing media often does, it makes it simple for the viewer to get a grasp, because the viewer has an attentionspan of ant (2 minutes or less), so you have to crunch it down, but that gives you biased view. So, if there's little time, no opinions or questions like these at all. If there's a lot of time, then experts only discussing, without opinions. That's the way it should be done, and that's they way it is done, unless of course the media in hand is a business, because businesses always have agendas, making money and profit, and it can hurt serious journalism when cutting corners or 'inventing new ways to report'.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Berz,
You should have read all text in section about the history of conflict, instead of just look over it (btw, all three links were in fact links to the same site). And no, it describes things pretty diferently, not as you thought.
In case if you do not want to spend 40 minutes for reading a long story, I've made a post a couple of days ago. I hate to repeat myself, but here is a short and less detailed version of Russian view about the conflict. And it's of course less polite then the story on this site made by Chechens, since its author is Serb.
Here is the story from my point of view:
So you want to hear a Russian story? Ok then, I'll do it again, despite I already did it a thousand times.
It's all started after collaps of the Soviet Union. The econmy of enire USSR laid in ruins before 1991. When in 1991, USSR collapsed, it made things even worse, since economic ties of the former Soviet republic were broken. Already poor people became even poorer. It's a perfect situation for radicals of any kind, esp. nationalists and religious extemists, since it's in human nature to blame people of other nationality and religion in their own troubles.
So, after collapse of the USSR in Chechnya (the autonmus republic inside the former Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which has now became a successor of USSR and being called Russian Federation) general Dudaev took the power. As typical fascist d!ckhead, I mean dictator, he encouraged ethnic and religious tensions and started to pump up his army. Soon he declared independence and started a blood bath there. The most popular slogan was - "kill Russian dogs", since Russians and Chechens never liked each other, desipte there were living nearby for centuries. And people there start to fulfill the wish of their ruller. There were rivers of blood, rapes, fences decorated by non-Chechen and Christians entrails and heads, public shootings on central square of Grozny in front of video cameras, etc. A real f*cking blood bath. Everyone who was able - escaped the republic.
Then Eltsin who is responsible for this blood bath, at the first place by letting Dudaev to took the power, and who did nothing while he was pumping up his army, ordered to Russian forces to enter Chechnya. Thus first war started. Dudaev declared a Jihad, a holy war and fight for independence and most of the Chechens supported him. Another blood bath started. Eltsin plan to quickly defeat the rebels failed. And rebels started a full scalle partisan warfare. With such incompetend leadership as Eltsin and Chernomyrdin who didn't allow military to do their job and constanly interferenced by giving absolutely opposite orders after short periods of time- like - storm the Grozny, then when it's almost captured- withdraw from there, after some time- storm it again etc. the war has been really screwed up for Russians.
People in Russia mostly weren't aware what the hell was going on in Chechnya before the war and weren't aware what the hell is going on there now, why this war started and why they have to send their sons to fight for Chechnya. Eltsin popolarity was lower 4%. In 1996, Eltsin had to win presidental elections and his popularity was about zero. There was a real possibility that communist's candidate would win the election. He gathered all oligarhhs leaded by Boris Berezovsky, get some big bucks and get some serious support from the west via PR specialists and other f*ckers. This bunch of *******s started a massive PR compaign that should be considered as true gold of brainwashing. One of the points of his "programme" was to end the Chechen war. After success of this brainwashing campaign he was re-elected and appointed Berezovsky's pupet general Lebed as chief of Security Concil of Russia and Berezovsky himself as assistant of chief of Russia's Security Concil. After elections, in 1996 Lebed and Maskhadov signed a Hassaviyurt treaty which said that all Russian military and police forces should immidiently withdraw from Chechnya, Russia should pay war reparations and status of Chechnya remains uncertain untill 2001. In other words it was a humilating capitulation and de-facto confirmation of independence of Chechnya.
All Russian forces were withdrawn from there. Kremlin lost any control over the region, and had to pay reparations within five years. They had all atributes of independent country- flag, hymn, their own army, their own police, their own KGB, their own everything. No Russian constitution anymore, instead of this they establisheb Sharia law, with death penalties for gays, marital infidelity, etc, with such penalties for thievery as cutting of hands, etc. In other words- fine code of medieval laws. They also established embassies all around the world. Esp. close relations they had with the Taliban regime, It's not surprising since the Taliban was their brother in faith and arms, their sponsor and a shining example for them. In short, they invented nothing new during creation of their soverign state- they just copied their state from the Taliban's state. And the Taliban soon became first and the only country which recognized Chechnya as independent state. In 1996-1999 Chechnya became home sweet home for all kinds of international motherf*ckers who flooded the region. Most of them were vahhabites who came there seeking for new souls to corrupt. Vahhabism was spreading across Chechnya. Despite between 1996-1999 Russia paid billions of bucks, once again BILLIONS $$$, their government didn't build a single school or hospital. Their leader Maskhadov just said to his people that there will be another war soon and that he bought more weapons instead. The motherf*ckers worldwide sponsored thier brothers in arms too, but they also demanded some action for this. Action means- do harm to unfaithfull- Russians. And all those d!cks local, and foreign who created their camps and bases on Chechen territory start to attack Russia. They blew bombs in trains, markets, subway stations, etc. Another most profitable bussines of new leadership of Chechnya was kindapping and slavery. They stolen people from all corners of Russia, brought them to Chechnya, and held them for ransom or just used as slaves. Every warlord's (or so-called ministers of so-called government of Chechen republic) had in his house a pretty unique feature for 20th century- a tortue chamber and a slave's chamber. Thousands of Russian citizens were killed and turned to slaves between 1996-1999, while de-facto Chechnya was independent. In 1999 they blew up several appartment buildings in Moscow and some other Russian cities. Several hundrends of sleeping civilians died. In the same year the army lead by so-called minister of defense of Chechen republic- Shamil Basaev invaded neighbour Russian respublic Dagestan. It was a declaration of war and a limit brake for Russia. Putin said- no f*cking way, not this time, f*ckers. Russians get their crap together and wiped terrorist arses. Locals after three years of vahhabites regime were WAYYYYYYYY more friendly to Russians. Some of them, who didn't accepted vahhabite's teachings, joined Russians in fight against vahhabites. Soon whole Chechnya was under control of Federal forces. Russians state institutions were restored. On referendum about 1 year ago, Chechens approved new constitution of the republic which says that Chechnya is autonomus republic of Russian Federation, elected their new president Ahmad Kadyrov, who was a main mufti of Chechnya and a spiritual leader of Chechens during first Chechen war, and who fought Russians (and kill Russians) during first war, but didn't accepted the vahhabism and after seeing what vahhabites made with Chechnya in 1996-1999, joined Russians in war against them. Life started to get back to normal, very slowly, but still. Such situation was unacceptable for remaining terrorists and thier foreign sponsors, and they continued to do the only thing they could do- they continued to terrorize people inside and outside of Chechnya. In 2002 Maskhadov and Basaev prepared an attack agaisn Moscow's theater on Dubrowka, where about 1000 people came to watch musical. Over a hundred of them died, They exploded a new buildings of government of Chechen republic in grozny, murdered president Kadyrov, blew up hell knows how many bombs inside and outside Chechnya that killed thousands with those years. One of that bomb exploded recently near Moscow's subway station and if not police officer it would blow inside and there would be not 10 victims but hundreds. Two boms exploded in airplanes killing about 100 people. And finnaly they've captured a school in Beslan and killed over 300 people over 150 among them were children.
That's the Russian story. Russians are fully justified in second war. It was a self-defence. A self-defence against monster whose name is terrorism and religious extremism. Anyone who whine abbout opression, freedom fighting, etc, just do not know a thing about what was going on here in Russia between 1996-199 when Chechnya was de-facto independent. They don't know a thing what kind of terror was there, when our houses were exploding one by one, in different cities, when our citizens were captured and turned to slaves. How terrorist torutred them to death, how they cut their throats while laughing. One of foreign reporters who witnessed liberation of slaves in Chechnya by Russian specnaz, said something like this- "man, they look worse than the victims of nazi's death camps".
To bad you prefer to read balh...blah...blah...freedom fighters..., blah...blah...blah... articles of bullshiters who sponsored by Osama and his Chechen brothers in arms.
Chechen people made their clear choice- they voted for constitution that says Chechnya is part of Russia. They really didn't have much choice, because they knew what the alternative is- a Taliban type state where they lived for three years and enjoined all sweet fruits of this state, such as right to be sold and bought like an animal or the right to be beaten to death by stones for cheating your husbant.
No illusions here, I think most of them would preffer to live in independed state. But it would not happen, we have enough of their independence and we know what they are doing when become independent- they keep attacking and invading Russia.
Last edited by Serb on 10-09-2004 at 18:09
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
Berz,
You should have read all text in section about the history of conflict, instead of just look over it (btw, all three links were in fact links to the same site). And no, it describes things pretty diferently, not as you thought. |
Accepting your version is like taking a snapshot of a boxing match as Mike Tyson hits another guy and the next day's headline is "Evil Mike Tyson Brutally Attacks Innocent Bystander". The Russians have been there for centuries committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc...
No wonder the place is screwed up, another example showing why colonialism is evil.
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10-09-2004 14:00
@ Thread. 
I'm going to drop out for a bit and finish reading up. Thanks Serb! 
. I hope it will provide you some info about the history of Chechnya, the history of Russian-Chechen relationships through centuries and the history of modern conflict. My own version is just my own view, there you'll find the more detailed story.
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