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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
You mean, to fight for independance against Russia is terrorism and banditism? |
I think it is. This is because referendums have not demonstrated that most Chechnians desire independance atm. Violent rebellion against a representative form of government deserves to be recognized as terrorism or banditry. The exception might be those representative governments that don't offer such local referendums to the populations of the region in question.
Otherwise the assassin who killed JFK might have to be considered not an assassin but rather an insurgent simply pursuing a political objective.
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MalevolentLight
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High Above
Jul 1999
time: 00:23
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Refering to the first post in this thread...who ever said our media was free and unbiased? On CNN their reporters aren't allowed to use certain words like "illegal alien", they have to be called guests. FoX news has made sure to call them terrorists, but you are right most the media out there is calling them rebels and freedom fighters and ****. They are terrorists pure and simple and I would like nothing more than to see them paved over and turned into a parking lot.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
I think it is. This is because referendums have not demonstrated that most Chechnians desire independance atm.
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Do You think those "referenda"
weren't forged? Oh c-mon,
Also, when did they take place?
I do not recall, really.
And if they did, they took place AFTER the wars, when the state was under Russian military occupation.
And do You really believe Chechens want to be a part of state that conquered them, colonised, accused of collaborating with Hitler, moved en masse out of their homes?
quote:
Violent rebellion against a representative form of government deserves to be recognized as terrorism or banditry. The exception might be those representative governments that don't offer such local referendums to the populations of the region in question.
|
Yes, I firmly believe Russia would let a part of it declare independance if it willed so...
Also, it wasn't a "violent rebellion".
As former Soviet republics as Ukraine or Kazakhstan declared independance, so did Chechenia. No violence up to the time when Yeltzin much later decided to put an end to this self-claimed independance.
Was Lithuanian independance banditism and terrorism? Slovenian?
Bosnian? They all fall into your cathegory, if You count Chechenia in.
You could claim Tibetans are bandits and terrorists as well this way.
quote:
Otherwise the assassin who killed JFK might have to be considered not an assassin but rather an insurgent simply pursuing a political objective. |
Bad comparison. This assasin killed someone, Chechens didn't kill anyone by declaring independance. Russia by deciding on military action against this occupation - yes.
(I'm talking about pre-1994 stuff)
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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Wow, lots to address here, I hope I don't overlook anything.
First off this might all be a minor linguistic misunderstanding. You had asked:
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
You mean, to fight for independance against Russia is terrorism and banditism? |
and I read 'fight' to mean violent rebellion. If you meant fight in the metaphorical sense of strenuously opposing I would have to say I do not equate that kind of 'fight' to terrorism and banditry.
In case you meant 'fight' to be violent opposition I'll try to address the rest of the post
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Do You think those "referenda"
weren't forged? Oh c-mon,
Also, when did they take place?
I do not recall, really.
And if they did, they took place AFTER the wars, when the state was under Russian military occupation.
|
You're correct that they all took place under Russian military occupation, but Puerto Rico is under US military occupation and yet people recognize our periodic referendums there on the degree of partial or complete independance of Puerto Rico as legitimate. Military occupation does not automatically prevent use of a referendum.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
And do You really believe Chechens want to be a part of state that conquered them, colonised, accused of collaborating with Hitler, moved en masse out of their homes?
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Well I make comparisons to the situation of the native Americans here in the US. The native Americans were ethnically cleansed out of desirable areas of the country and moved to undesirable little scraps of land called reservations. Native americans got conquered, colonised, accused of all manner of vicious crimes, and moved en masse out of their homes. What's worse, we never had a repatriation to ancestral regions of the country in the US. In Russia at least most of the Nahk speaking inhabitants of Chechnya were repatriated there not long after Stalins death. And yet despite all this it can seem as if there are as many opinions on how and with what to replace the current system of reservations with as there are inhabitants of those reservations. I don't find it that hard to believe that after the disastrous period of Chechnian independance from 1996 to 1999 that most chechnyans might want to remain under the relative protection of the Russian federation.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Yes, I firmly believe Russia would let a part of it declare independance if it willed so...
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It did! The independance of the ex soviet republics was largely a result of the efforts of the Russian federation and Russia later even granted indepence to Chechnia. I don't see why you find this so hard to belive. A region can be more trouble for a democracy to keep than it's worth. The reason independance ended for Chechnia was that it wasn't working out any better and in fact managed to become even more trouble than union had been.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Also, it wasn't a "violent rebellion".
As former Soviet republics as Ukraine or Kazakhstan declared independance, so did Chechenia. No violence up to the time when Yeltzin much later decided to put an end to this self-claimed independance.
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It certainly became a violent rebellion 
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Was Lithuanian independance banditism and terrorism? Slovenian?
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No, they gained independance peacefully.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Bosnian? They all fall into your cathegory, if You count Chechenia in.
You could claim Tibetans are bandits and terrorists as well this way.
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I have to research a bit more about the state of democracy in yugoslavia when Bosnia declared independance but I'm fairly sure the violence was not initiaed by the Bosnians in any case.
As to tibet, are you seriously claiming that China is anywhere near as democratic as Russia is? All political parties except communism are illegal in China. Anybody and everybody is justified in violently opposing such a government in my opinion although I would still condemn any terrorism by Tibetans against Chinese civilians if they ever were to take part in such actions.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Bad comparison. This assasin killed someone, Chechens didn't kill anyone by declaring independance. Russia by deciding on military action against this occupation - yes.
(I'm talking about pre-1994 stuff) |
It sems like a perfect comparison unless by 'fight' in your original post you meant 'fighting' that doesn't involve any killings. Otherwise I'm stumped as to why you'd think this was a bad comparison.
Last edited by Geronimo on 21-09-2004 at 03:27
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
As opposed to the American rebellion? |
The fact that I regard the 18th century British government as even less democratic than modern Russia notwithstanding I actually don't think the American revolution was at first excusable simply because in the beginning it did not set out to establish a true representative government. Only white men could take part in political process and look at the terrible policies that persisted until this situation was redressed. Hell, the UK actually outlawed slavery decades before the US did. Of course this in no way means that I don't recognize the US independance that was gained in the revolutionary war as legitimate but it was only legitimate because in recognition of the decision on the battlefield, both parties agreed to acknowledge it.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
and I read 'fight' to mean violent rebellion. If you meant fight in the metaphorical sense of strenuously opposing I would have to say I do not equate that kind of 'fight' to terrorism and banditry.
In case you meant 'fight' to be violent opposition I'll try to address the rest of the post
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And if I mean "defending self-claimed independance against the attack of Russian army" by it?
quote:
You're correct that they all took place under Russian military occupation, but Puerto Rico is under US military occupation and yet people recognize our periodic referendums there on the degree of partial or complete independance of Puerto Rico as legitimate. Military occupation does not automatically prevent use of a referendum.
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Where are You from?
Why don't You understand Russia has no democratical tradition to say it in very polite way, and that the referenda in such cases are bound to be forged, or at least are let to be forged? I remember a Russian journalist who voted 5x in last Chechenian elections, and said he'd have voted more, but he had better things to do.
Also, was Puerto Rico occupied after a serie of uprisings, wars, depatriations and repatriations, and do Americans say "we hate them, and they hate us", like Serb says about Chechenia,
and was it just a couple of whiles ago?
quote:
In Russia at least most of the Nahk speaking inhabitants of Chechnya were repatriated there not long after Stalins death.
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USA politics suck, then, but that does not mean Russian do not.
quote:
after the disastrous period of Chechnian independance from 1996 to 1999 that most chechnyans might want to remain under the relative protection of the Russian federation.
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You think the war Russians led was less destructive? That rapes, killings, tortures on Chechenians made them love Russia and want to flee under her arms? C-mon....
quote:
It did! The independance of the ex soviet republics was largely a result of the efforts of the Russian federation
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These republics were not a part of Russia.
Yeltzin supported the split of USSR, not granted independance to anyone. He was just one of many.
quote:
and Russia later even granted indepence to Chechnia.
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Id did? Really? So current war is Russian agression on an independant state?
quote:
It certainly became a violent rebellion
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But it is a fault of Russian gouverment, not Chechen, sorry.
quote:
No, they gained independance peacefully.
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Not quite. There were military clashes.
quote:
I have to research a bit more about the state of democracy in yugoslavia when Bosnia declared independance but I'm fairly sure the violence was not initiaed by the Bosnians in any case.
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Nor was by Chechenians (referring to 1994)
quote:
As to tibet, are you seriously claiming that China is anywhere near as democratic as Russia is?
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No, why would why? It's irrelevant.
quote:
It sems like a perfect comparison unless by 'fight' in your original post you meant 'fighting' that doesn't involve any killings. Otherwise I'm stumped as to why you'd think this was a bad comparison. |
If Russians accepted Chechen independance from the start, there would be no "fighting"
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:23
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Serb - quote:
Perhaps I need a pair of glasses, but I can't find Berz's resonse to this question. |
That would explain why you aren't responding to my points. He posted it shortly after my last post and you think it's unusual I didn't respond to his question before your "observation"? I'll try to stay online 24/7 from now on 
Geronimo - quote:
Interesting. So Berz, suppose that native americans native to one of the states started committing terracts and demanded the return of that state in it's entirety to their exclusive political control. |
Okay, I'm supposing...now what?
quote:
Further let's imagine that one state is the state you live in. Let's also suppose that unexpectedly most of the non native americans flee the state so that incredibly a native american majority is established there. Given that US history has consisted of hundreds of years of genocide, marginalization and oppression of native Americans would you then recomend that the best response to these terracts be to grant independance to the state you live in under the political control of the native americans? |
Your "analogy" is askew, the genocide of Indians ended around 100 years ago and Indians have long since assimiliated into the local cultures or vice versa, the genocide isn't ongoing. Modern Indians cannot hold modern whites accountable for the crimes of the past, but those crimes sure explain why some Indians don't like white people just as Russia's past explains why many Chechens hate Russians...
As for your question, sure, let the Indians have a chance at governing. They can't be any worse than the Republicrats... But my state was settled primarily by Quakers and they actually got along well with the Indians here... Oh yeah, where did you get the idea I'm defending murdering the innocent? That's why I'm opposed to Russia being in Chechnya in the first place.
quote:
Doesn't your pov suggest that the best thing for native americans to do to regain what was there's would be to commit terracts so everybody can point to their hundreds of years of oppression and grievances and call the rest of the americans the real villians? |
The oppression in Chechnya is ongoing - a continuation of centuries of abuse. The best response is the moral response, and the moral response is to find out why Chechens are angry and seek a solution. And the solution is to stop oppressing Chechens, let them go...
Why does my position on Chechnya require me to defend what whites did to Indians more than a century ago? I'd think if you would have opposed the genocide of Indians you'd oppose the genocide of Chechens too...
If my family is murdered because some politician decided to force people off in some distant land to be part of our group, I'd be damn mad at the politician too...
Is Russia forcing all Chechens to be part of Russia out of some concern for the human rights of Chechens who want to be Russians? **** NO! They want the resources, so let's not portray the Russians as some benevolent force resisting evil...there's plenty of that to go around...
Ljube - quote:
Does this mean you support Chechens Berz? |
I support their independence, if Chechens are in disagreement about being part of Russia, then let them decide. If they are split on the matter and violence becomes part of the "solution", then Chechnya should split up into pro-Russian and anti-Russian areas. Hell, let them split up into their traditionally tribal systems...
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
And the terrorism started after the miltary action.
Oh, Geronimo, Puerto Rico is not under military occupation so arguing that it is analogous to Chechnya is invalid. |
I admit I don't regard it as under occupation either, but polytubbies generally speak as if any area which hosts a military base of outsiders which they cannot unilaterally eject as being under occupation. The US may not make as full of use of the firing range on Puerto Rico as before the protests but by no means is the military no longer operating from there.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Serb -
That would explain why you aren't responding to my points. He posted it shortly after my last post and you think it's unusual I didn't respond to his question before your "observation"? I'll try to stay online 24/7 from now on
Geronimo -
Okay, I'm supposing...now what?
Your "analogy" is askew, the genocide of Indians ended around 100 years ago and Indians have long since assimiliated into the local cultures or vice versa, the genocide isn't ongoing. Modern Indians cannot hold modern whites accountable for the crimes of the past, but those crimes sure explain why some Indians don't like white people just as Russia's past explains why many Chechens hate Russians...
As for your question, sure, let the Indians have a chance at governing. They can't be any worse than the Republicrats... But my state was settled primarily by Quakers and they actually got along well with the Indians here... Oh yeah, where did you get the idea I'm defending murdering the innocent? That's why I'm opposed to Russia being in Chechnya in the first place.
The oppression in Chechnya is ongoing - a continuation of centuries of abuse. The best response is the moral response, and the moral response is to find out why Chechens are angry and seek a solution. And the solution is to stop oppressing Chechens, let them go...
Why does my position on Chechnya require me to defend what whites did to Indians more than a century ago? I'd think if you would have opposed the genocide of Indians you'd oppose the genocide of Chechens too...
If my family is murdered because some politician decided to force people off in some distant land to be part of our group, I'd be damn mad at the politician too...
Is Russia forcing all Chechens to be part of Russia out of some concern for the human rights of Chechens who want to be Russians? **** NO! They want the resources, so let's not portray the Russians as some benevolent force resisting evil...there's plenty of that to go around...
Ljube -
I support their independence, if Chechens are in disagreement about being part of Russia, then let them decide. If they are split on the matter and violence becomes part of the "solution", then Chechnya should split up into pro-Russian and anti-Russian areas. Hell, let them split up into their traditionally tribal systems... |
I feel better about your position now.  It doesnt sound like you accept violent solutions as the best approach to situations of this type. That was the point of my US equivalent analogy.
Now in Chechnia we have the situation where independance was granted and during this period of independance a taliban like terrorist regime was established which even went so far as to invade Russia in an operation evidently designed to expand their little wahabbist entity by pressuring Russia to abandon it's province of Dagestan as well. In light of these recent events how do you think immediate resumption of Chechnian independance would solve anything?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
First of all, the independance WAS NOT granted. Again, otherwise You'd have to admit current attack is an agression on a souvereign state
When it comes to Dagestan stuff, it was a work of mr Basajev, the authorities of the republic condemned the attack. |
No comments. I see now, you are hopless Heresson. In your hate towards Russia you have lost any sence of logic and became absoluttely blind.
How many times should I tell you- we signed a peace treaty with them. Do you understand this? A PEACE F*CKING TREATY!!! And they attacked us. You whining about referendums is absolutely stupid, becuase you have no proofs and what you are saying is basicaly- "oh, it's referendum in Russia, so it must be flawed by definition, who needs evidences?" There were foreign observers. We invited anyone to observe the referendum. ANYONE WHO WANTED TO OBSERVE THE REFERENDUM, DID SO.
The fact that Europen anti-Russian d!cks from concil of Europe refused the invitation, just proove that they predicted that outcome will not be in their favor. So they said- we will not come, because we need something to whine about after the referendum. They refused to come- their fault. There were plenty of other foreign observers, including from Muslim countries and no violations were found. So please shut the **** up.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
No comments. I see now, you are hopless Heresson. In your hate towards Russia you have lost any sence of logic and became absoluttely blind.
So please shut the **** up.
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Could You lead one discussion without offending your oponents, hm?
quote:
How many times should I tell you- we signed a peace treaty with them. Do you understand this? A PEACE F*CKING TREATY!!!
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So, did You approve their independance? And if so, is current war a war against an independant state?
And don't swear. You are not helping your cause by it.
quote:
And they attacked us.
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Some Chechens attacked You, but without approval of Chechen gouverment. Do You think Cheches are idiots?
Only Muslim fanatics like Basajev can dream about "liberating" entire northern Caucasus. Maschadov condemned the attack.
quote:
You whining about referendums is absolutely stupid, becuase you have no proofs and what you are saying is basicaly- "oh, it's referendum in Russia, so it must be flawed by definition, who needs evidences?" There were foreign observers. We invited anyone to observe the referendum. ANYONE WHO WANTED TO OBSERVE THE REFERENDUM, DID SO.
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And the ones who did thought it was a sham...
quote:
In March 2003, a Chechen referendum was approved favoring a new constitution stipulating the republic as part of the Russian Federation. However the referendum was met by criticism of not being truly representative of the desires of the Chechen people as conflict had still not been resolved.
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quote:
In October that year, Akhmad Kadyrov won the presidency. But that election too was condemned by some Chechens as a sham, and international observers said the poll was questionable because of a lack of pluralism
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http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp
What You are saying is "we invaded this country because it's attacked us, and after we conquered it, its citizens cheerfully decided to join our state"
If someone is blind here, You are.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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What is it they were forced to do?
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, I thought it was targeting civilians that qualified as terrorism.
If the Chechens want to target the Russian army and have at it at 10 paces, more power to 'em, for the few moments they survive.
What makes them scum sucking pigs worth less than being treated with contempt is when they blow up people sleeping in their beds, or better yet occupy a school and massacre several hundred children.
****ing ****s! I hope the Russians catch every last one of them and treat them as they fully deserve to be treated. |
I suppose I have to agree. At worst it would be banditry if they aren't attacking non government civilians.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Where are You from?
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He is from US, I guess.
quote:
Why don't You understand Russia has no democratical tradition to say it in very polite way, and that the referenda in such cases are bound to be forged, or at least are let to be forged? |
And you say you are unbiased?
Heresson- "I've no proof that those referendums were flawed, but they should have been flawed by defenition, becuase it was Russian referndums and as we all know Russians are barbarians, so we don't need to send any of our observers to watch those referendums". The end of quote.
Great apraoch.
quote:
I remember a Russian journalist who voted 5x in last Chechenian elections, and said he'd have voted more, but he had better things to do. |
Remind me his name, please.
Anyhow, some journalists are just a bulsh!ters and liars. Had he really did so, why he didn't go to the court?
quote:
Also, was Puerto Rico occupied after a serie of uprisings, wars, depatriations and repatriations, and do Americans say "we hate them, and they hate us", like Serb says about Chechenia,
and was it just a couple of whiles ago? |
Serb said that we have plenty of reasons to hate each other. It's a bit different.
quote:
USA politics suck, then, but that does not mean
Russian do not. |
Oh, sure. Russian politics sucks, US politics sucks, only mighty kingdom of Poland is the last hope of humanity.
quote:
You think the war Russians led was less destructive? That rapes, killings, tortures on Chechenians made them love Russia and want to flee under her arms? C-mon.... |
1) It was them how started the violence.
2) The independednt government of Chechnya (bunch of warlords) opressed Chechens between 1996-1999 in a horible way. Is it so hard to imagine that people of Chechnya do not want that kind of independece anymore? That they want to have basic freedoms, education for their kids, free healthcare, etc, all other things that we had and have in Russia, instead of right to be sold and bought or right to be beaten to death with stones for minor "crimes" like cheating your husband? Between 1996-1999 in Chechnya there was no SINGLE operational school or state hospital. It was a time of chaos and opression, when thousands of Chechens (as well as Russians) were kidnaped/murdered. It was three years of crime and darkness. That's why thousands of Chechens who fought against Russians in Chechen war for independese between 1994-1996 joined Russians in 1999 in war agaist religion extermists who ruled Chechnya between 1996-1999.
Now you think that Chechens should go back to this era of crime and slavery?
quote:
These republics were not a part of Russia.
Yeltzin supported the split of USSR, not granted independance to anyone. He was just one of many. |
BS. He destroyed the USSR. He and three other bastards signed the documed that destroyed the USSR by giving independence to the Soviet republics.
quote:
Id did? Really? So current war is Russian agression on an independant state? |
De-facto Russia GAVE independece to Chechya in 1996, not de-juro. So, the second war was de-facto war against independet state. But, not an agression, because this independent state attacked Russia by invading Dagestan in 1999, despite we signed with them 5 year term peace treaty. De-facto it was war vs. independent state, but de-juro it wasn't.
Next question, please.
quote:
But it is a fault of Russian gouverment, not Chechen, sorry. |
Look, smartass, in 1991-1994 they killed tens of thousands and expelled hundrends of thousands of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should have done? Just watch how whole North Caucasus become a huge bloodbath and do nothing?
quote:
Nor was by Chechenians (referring to 1994) |
You are living in a fantasy world.
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If Russians accepted Chechen independance from the start, there would be no "fighting" |
Sure, sure, had Russians surendered, and let them slaughter Russians like an animals there would be no fighting. You smile everytime when somebody kills Russians, do you?
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
BS. He destroyed the USSR. He and three other bastards signed the documed that destroyed the USSR by giving independence to the Soviet republics.
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Serb, it's clear that you see Yeltsin as a grossly incompetant or even malicious leader of Russia but it's less clear as to what you would have prefered to have the Soviet Union become. Do you wish that instead of splitting the old USSR into several countries an effort should have been made to maintain it as one country? Some sort of 'Greater Russia' with borders matching those of the USSR perhaps? How would you have directed events differently if you had been leader in Yeltsins place?
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Enjoy you reading.
And it's from the guardian, of course.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/ar...1299408,00.html
What really kills me is that your "free", "advanced", "ubiased" media, NEVER calls persons who took and kill hostages- terrorists, if those persons act in Russia.
American and European media calls them- rebels, guman, militants, guerrillas, even fighters sometimes, it calls them anyhow but NEVER calls them TERRORISTS.
Not that I'm really surprised, considering that CNN invites one of those f*ckers (who personally cut throats in Dagestan in 1999, but now wears an expensive suit and lives in UK) into their studio and broadcast his sh!t on whole world.
**** your so-called "freedom of speech".
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You're right on Serb. **** America.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Heresson- "I've no proof that those referendums were flawed, but they should have been flawed by defenition, becuase it was Russian referndums and as we all know Russians are barbarians, so we don't need to send any of our observers to watch those referendums". The end of quote.
Great apraoch.
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Nah, if the observers from democratic states would consider the referendum as something else than sham, I would as well.
Still, the only observers were ones of Wspolnoty Niepodleglych Panstw (whatever in English), which is under Russian influence (it is an association of post-Soviet republics but Baltic ones, I think Georgia was not quite willing to belong to it too originally) and which members are mostly undemocratic,
and from Arab League, which is 100% undemocratic.
Yet, these observers were supposed to judge this referendum. Oh well....
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Remind me his name, please.
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I will when I'll find it. It was given, but I'm leaving home this night and won't be able to browse all the old papers
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Anyhow, some journalists are just a bulsh!ters and liars. Had he really did so, why he didn't go to the court?
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What for?
[quote[
Serb said that we have plenty of reasons to hate each other. It's a bit different.
[/quote]
I will look for that part.
Nah, not in this thread. Too lazy to search for it elsewhere.
You're right, probably, but the meaning depends on the circumstances
found this
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I hate to repeat myself
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LOL
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Oh, sure. Russian politics sucks, US politics sucks, only mighty kingdom of Poland is the last hope of humanity.
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Nah, Polish politics suck too pretty often, just we have no opportunity to suck as much as You do.
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1) It was them how started the violence.
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Them? I though they are part of your glorious reign?
And no, Russians started it.
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2) The independednt government of Chechnya (bunch of warlords) opressed Chechens between 1996-1999 in a horible way.
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Then came the brave Russian knights.
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That they want to have basic freedoms, education for their kids, free healthcare, etc, all other things that we had and have in Russia,
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You have that in Omsk? Shock. 
Your education is Soviet propaganda.
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Between 1996-1999 in Chechnya there was no SINGLE operational school or state hospital.
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Russians probably destroyed them during the war
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It was three years of crime and darkness.
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I do not doubt that. There were Poles kidnapped too;
but still I doubt Chechenians are happy at entrance of Russian soldiers.
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But, not an agression, because this independent state attacked Russia by invading Dagestan in 1999
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It was an attack by one of the groups in this country, and was condemned by the official authorities (Maschadov).
How many times do I have to repeat that?
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Look, smartass, in 1991-1994 they killed tens of thousands and expelled hundrends of thousands of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should have done? Just watch how whole North Caucasus become a huge bloodbath and do nothing?
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I thought Chechenia was itself 1mln people... Your claims are overcalculated probably, and no, I have not heard of these alleged deeds.
Instead, I've heard of a bloodbath made by Russians there.
Perhaps it is exagerrated, of course.
And when it comes to the quote posted by Kidicious:
Serb, it may be a shock for You, but not everyone that fights against Russia is a terrorist.
they are terrorists when they do sth like in Bieslan.
But not when they just oppose the entrance of Russian army.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:23
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Serb---Daniel Pipes, a "neo-con", recently called Chechen 'militants' terrorists and indeed wrote a whole article *****ing about how so few people do call them terrorists.
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zevico
Serb---Daniel Pipes, a "neo-con", recently called Chechen 'militants' terrorists and indeed wrote a whole article *****ing about how so few people do call them terrorists. |
You mean this article?
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21-09-2004 00:42
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