10-09-2004 11:44									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo all US journalism consists of private businesses. Wall street journal does not gain any special credibility due to its target market IMHO. Honestly Lonestar, how would this make any more sense for people working for the Russian government to do to themselves than it would for our own government to have planned and executed the 9/11 attacks? How in the hell would a public official shield themselves from the possibility of those underneath them leaking the ghastly plan to the public? The 'journalist' who wrote that editorial is demonstrating abysmal critical thinking skills.

Russia has a long history of it's government apparatus being coldblooded and brutal to it's own population, the United States doesn't. Makes a world of difference.

	10-09-2004 11:45									#62
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Giancarlo, get a freaking grip. Putin's a bastard. He is authoritarian. The only good thing about him is that he's not a complete dictator..but quite frankly he's close. If he attacks terrorists, all well and good, but don't compliment him on something he doesn't deserve.
Serb: I really don't know enough about the Chechnya conflict to say much about it. Putin &co. are basically remnants of the Communist regime in many respects, and for that reason I don't trust them in the slightest. On the other hand, Chechnya is pretty messed up. However, a good judgement of both of these sides is impossible with the lack of information that I have. Can you recommend any books, web sites, or etc that speak about this conflict, or that can explain its causes?

	10-09-2004 11:45									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Wall Street Journal

David Satter is *not* an employee with the Wall Street Journal. According to the source line: "Mr. Satter, affiliated with the Hoover Institution, the Hudson Institute and Johns Hopkins, is author of "Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State" (Yale, 2003)."

IOW, he's not a reporter, who are obligated by their profession to remain impartial while doing his/her job. Satter is a contributor and hopefully the article was labeled with something indicating it was opinion.

Gatekeeper

	10-09-2004 11:46									#64
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I'm not a Republican but I believe that power should be de-centralised as much as possible so I'm not a fan of big countries that absorb other people's land and then wonder why they aren't given a pat on the back. Is that what happened with Chechnya and Russia?

And can Russia now invade the USA for supporting terrorism?

	10-09-2004 11:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Giancarlo, get a freaking grip. Putin's a bastard. He is authoritarian. The only good thing about him is that he's not a complete dictator..but quite frankly he's close. If he attacks terrorists, all well and good, but don't compliment him on something he doesn't deserve. Serb: I really don't know enough about the Chechnya conflict to say much about it. Putin &co. are basically remnants of the Communist regime in many respects, and for that reason I don't trust them in the slightest. On the other hand, Chechnya is pretty messed up. However, a good judgement of both of these sides is impossible with the lack of information that I have. Can you recommend any books, web sites, or etc that speak about this conflict, or that can explain its causes?

You forget one little f--king thing, Russia has been in Chechnya for a very long time. Putin didn't start it. I think Russia has been in there since 1860 ?? (Need verification of that or correction). Putin is not a remnant of the communist regime. That's just stupid to say. Putin is no bastard.

	10-09-2004 11:50									#66
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quote: Originally posted by pchang And he totally neglected that whole Dagestan thing.

Yep, despite the fact the invasion in Dagestan was THE reason why Russian forces enetered Chechnya second time, not the explosions in Moscow.
This article is just a BS.

	10-09-2004 11:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You forget one little f--king thing, Russia has been in Chechnya for a very long time. Putin didn't start it. I think Russia has been in there since 1860 ?? (Need verification of that or correction). Putin is not a remnant of the communist regime. That's just stupid to say. Putin is no bastard.

Fez, if you said the sky was blue I would run outside to doublecheck.

	10-09-2004 11:52									#68
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Lonestar, address the other part of my post please.

	10-09-2004 11:52									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper David Satter is *not* an employee with the Wall Street Journal. According to the source line: "Mr. Satter, affiliated with the Hoover Institution, the Hudson Institute and Johns Hopkins, is author of "Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State" (Yale, 2003)." IOW, he's not a reporter, who are obligated by their profession to remain impartial while doing his/her job. Satter is a contributor and hopefully the article was labeled with something indicating it was opinion. Gatekeeper

I'm glad you pointed that out. I was pretty bummed to say the least at the prospect of a member of the wall street journals staff writing such a surreal chain of absurdities and poor recollection of facts in a single editorial. I should've spotted that myself. I'm still not happy that the wall street jouranl saw it as fit to publish though.

	10-09-2004 11:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker ...so I'm not a fan of big countries that absorb other people's land and then wonder why they aren't given a pat on the back.

Says who?


The American Emperor, aren't you still occupy the Native's lands?

	10-09-2004 11:59									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Lonestar, address the other part of my post please.

Alright:

quote: Russia has been in Chechnya for a very long time. Putin didn't start it. I think Russia has been in there since 1860 ??

I'm not sure right off the bat, but that sounds right. To which I respond:

So? Ireland was part of England longer. NORMANDY was part of England longer. In both cases, the English knew when to say "Gee whiz, maybe the lcoals really aren't that happy having us as overlords" and letting them go.

	10-09-2004 12:06									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I thought Imran was a democrat?

No, he's a Kerry-loving Republican turncoat and traitor to the cause who should be thrown from several helicopters.

	10-09-2004 12:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Alright: I'm not sure right off the bat, but that sounds right. To which I respond: So? Ireland was part of England longer. NORMANDY was part of England longer. In both cases, the English knew when to say "Gee whiz, maybe the lcoals really aren't that happy having us as overlords" and letting them go.

That's not my point. I didn't say anything about whether Russia should pull out of Chechnya or not. I'm just saying it is rather an emotional issue of national pride.

Mad Monk:

quote: No, he's a Kerry-loving Republican turncoat and traitor to the cause who should be thrown from several helicopters.

Ah yes, the... 2% of left wing "republicans" who support Kerry.

	10-09-2004 12:07									#74
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There is a difference between democrats and Democrats.

	10-09-2004 12:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Serb: I really don't know enough about the Chechnya conflict to say much about it. Putin &co. are basically remnants of the Communist regime in many respects, and for that reason I don't trust them in the slightest. On the other hand, Chechnya is pretty messed up. However, a good judgement of both of these sides is impossible with the lack of information that I have. Can you recommend any books, web sites, or etc that speak about this conflict, or that can explain its causes?

If you speak Russian, I could find something, western sites are usually just a terrorist's propaganda. I've already posted Russian version of the events, last time there:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...30&pagenumber=3
and there:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...799#post3282799

	10-09-2004 12:46									#77
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btw, Serb. I wish your opening rant about Western media were not accurate. However, I went and searched through some cbc pages. Indeed they called the murderers of children 'militants'. The words 'terrorism' and 'terrorist' were not used once.

Perhaps it might hearten you to know that most of us know that our media are full of ****.

	10-09-2004 12:50									#78
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Thank you very much, I feel much better now.

And of course our own media are full of ****s as well.

	10-09-2004 12:51									#79
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Well, even though Serb listed a horrible source, and his first post was a rant, unfortunatley, the gist of what he is saying is right.

The USA and the UK are both granting asylum to Chechen terrorists.

I think it's time to be more consistent with the war on "terror."

	10-09-2004 12:53									#80
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Agreed.

	10-09-2004 12:54									#81
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Western media is definitely full of ****.

However, in our media coverage I heard both versions. They were called "terrorists", when the big picture was discussed, and "hostage takers" in reports about the particular situation, because that was exactly what they did in the given moment. Nobody called them "freedom fighters" or somesuch.

	10-09-2004 13:03									#82
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Deutsch media is definitley full of ScheiBt

	10-09-2004 13:03									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Says who? The American Emperor, aren't you still occupy the Native's lands?

Yes, we are, and? If I lived back then I would have opposed taking their lands. Now, are you going to answer my question about why the Chechnyans are willing to die to kill Russians or should I just assume my suspicion to be true? I'm not one of these goofs who think people just strap on bombs to kill people for no reason...so what is it?

	10-09-2004 13:06									#84
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Serb I found this site in English about terrorism involving Chechyna ,but I really have had lousy luck finding anything even remotely detailed in english about these terrorists.

Even if the above link gets the facts all correct it would be nice to have a source a bit more detailed. I see pravda has an english language version. Would that be a better option for getting details about the conflict than CNN? I have no idea as to how credible they are these days. What Russian source would be the most credible?

	10-09-2004 13:09									#85
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Why fly airliners into big buildings, Berz? Why wear a bomb onto a bus with school kids on it, Berz?

Can I guess, hate?

Hate stirred up by religion and by oil money exported in the form of missionaries? That is the image of Wahhabism that is coming through lately.

	10-09-2004 13:17									#87
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why fly airliners into big buildings, Berz? Why wear a bomb onto a bus with school kids on it, Berz? Can I guess, hate? Hate stirred up by religion and by oil money exported in the form of missionaries? That is the image of Wahhabism that is coming through lately.

Yes yes, so why the hate? Does this have something to do with being under communism for decades? Or under the Czars before them?

Once again this is what created Vietnam. But this time the Chechnyans can hit inside of Russia... The solution is to let Chechnya go. But major powers are not in the habit of leaving people alone when they sit on resources...

	10-09-2004 13:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yes yes, so why the hate? Does this have something to do with being under communism for decades? Or under the Czars before them? Once again this is what created Vietnam. But this time the Chechnyans can hit inside of Russia... The solution is to let Chechnya go. But major powers are not in the habit of leaving people alone when they sit on resources...

I certainly agree that when this sort of situation arises one of the first things to try is to grant the separatists their independance. The Russians wisely gave this a try for 3 years and the country turned into a taliban clone bent on exporting it's terrorist brand of wahabbism to it's neighbors. It launched an invasion of Russia. Berz, independance won't be possible until the taliban element is ripped out.

In any event, have you asked Chechynans whether they want independance? They had a taste of it and I daresay the overwhelming majority are in no hurry to return to it. Like us, chechnyans care a hell of a lot more about their own individual liberties than about some abstract sovereignty for a local state. I daresay they'd rather live under foreign rule than local rule if the local rulers were tyrants intruding in their personal lives and the outsiders were willing to let them live like free human beings.

	10-09-2004 13:37									#89
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What Geronimo said

	10-09-2004 13:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well, even though Serb listed a horrible source, and his first post was a rant, unfortunatley, the gist of what he is saying is right. The USA and the UK are both granting asylum to Chechen terrorists. I think it's time to be more consistent with the war on "terror."

If you stopped torturing them we would send them back quite happily.