10-09-2004 18:36									#121
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Hmmm kinda weird- first article is absolute crap, while the second one is almost accurate.
Does fox really sucks so badly in comparison with cnn?

	10-09-2004 18:39									#122
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Most of the ones we do send back were lying about what happened to them so when they got back nothing happened to them. All that happens is that in some cases it is decided that an individual(however much he happens to be a complete ****er) may be tortured or persecuted on return and therefore under our international obligations we can't send him back.

I am unaware of the case of the chap Zakev but i would say there are many countries in the world who have refused to extradite IRA suspects for what I guess are similar raesons. Of couses the "good ol war on terror" USA did this. But then again the landmark ECHR decision on torture related to the treatment of IRA suspects so perhaps fair enough.

	10-09-2004 18:42									#123
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1. Im really tired of the US press calling terrorists "militants". I dont see how the neocons are responsible for this however.

2. Serb seems to think that those who call for a negotiated settlement in Chechnya, and who criticize Russian actions in Chechnya necessarily support Basayev and the terrorists.

Yet Russia calls for a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Pals, and criticizes Israeli actions that are far less harsh than what Russia has done in Chechnya. Does THAT mean that Russia supports Hamas and its "suicide" bombers? I wouldnt say so, but that seems to be the implication of the above logic.

3. Supporting the views of Nemtsov and others on economic and political liberalization doesnt imply agreement with everything the Russian liberals say.

4. The Guardian may not be pro-Putin, but it has a huge ax to grind with the neo-cons, and doesnt seem to be a fan of economic liberalization. Richard Perle is certainly among their "betes noirs".

5. Criticism of Putin from Russian newspapers doesnt prove there has not been oppression of the press. One reads here that he has virtually eliminated opposition TELEVISION, not newspapers.


6. And yes, Id like to see Zekaev and others like him extradited. Are neo cons stopping that?

	10-09-2004 18:44									#124
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There appears to be credible evidence (videotapes) that Zakaev killed prisoners (if he was in a civil war) or hostages (if he is a terrorist). In either case, there is credible evidence that he did something illegal. It appears the UK wants to consider the attacks in Dagestan a civil war and so does not consider him guilty of terrorism or murder. However, killing prisoners is clearly a violation of Geneva Convention and would make him a war criminal. But, Russia in no way wants to consider the attacks in Dagestan a civil war, and certainly does not want Zakaev referred to the Hague. In the meantime, Zakaev lives the life of a free man in the UK (I believe London).

	10-09-2004 18:46									#125
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Of couses the "good ol war on terror" USA did this.

And that is a black mark on the USA, and AFAIK was not supported by the neocons. It WAS supported by some American pols who have much better reps in Europe, like Ted Kennedy, IIUC.

	10-09-2004 18:49									#126
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It was supported by any American pol whose constituency had a large number of Irish Catholics in it. And thus, by extension, it was supported by a large number of Irish Catholics.

	10-09-2004 18:49									#127
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quote: First of all, welcome to my list of hopeless.

Hi folks.

quote: Secondly, did I talk about 19th century there?

No, kinda interesting omission don't you think? You seem to think centuries of Russian atrocities are unrelated to the atrocities now and I see them linked.

quote: I've expressed my views about the modern conflict. What are you doing is just a whining about Russian evilness through the centuries and about "since Russia is bigger it's wrong by definition". Pretty wise aproach.

Most certainly wise, what happened in the past is likely the cause of what is happening today. Funny how history works like that...

quote: Go and explore the site. I hope it will provide you some info about the history of Chechnya, the history of Russian-Chechen relationships through centuries and the history of modern conflict. My own version is just my own view, there you'll find the more detailed story.

I read your links. The Russians have been butchering Chechens for centuries and you think the Russians are oppressed by Chechens. Go figure...

	11-09-2004 03:23									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No, kinda interesting omission don't you think? You seem to think centuries of Russian atrocities are unrelated to the atrocities now and I see them linked. Most certainly wise, what happened in the past is likely the cause of what is happening today. Funny how history works like that... I read your links. The Russians have been butchering Chechens for centuries and you think the Russians are oppressed by Chechens. Go figure...

Interesting. So Berz, suppose that native americans native to one of the states started committing terracts and demanded the return of that state in it's entirety to their exclusive political control. Further let's imagine that one state is the state you live in. Let's also suppose that unexpectedly most of the non native americans flee the state so that incredibly a native american majority is established there. Given that US history has consisted of hundreds of years of genocide, marginalization and oppression of native Americans would you then recomend that the best response to these terracts be to grant independance to the state you live in under the political control of the native americans? Doesn't your pov suggest that the best thing for native americans to do to regain what was there's would be to commit terracts so everybody can point to their hundreds of years of oppression and grievances and call the rest of the americans the real villians?

	13-09-2004 08:36									#129
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 2. Serb seems to think that those who call for a negotiated settlement in Chechnya, and who criticize Russian actions in Chechnya necessarily support Basayev and the terrorists.

Ok, with whom we should negotiate, and about what?
Can you prove that remaining gangs of terrorists represent the will of majority of Chechen population?
Can you prove that majority of Chechen population support the terrorists in their campaign of terror against Russia and thus support the goal of terrorists- re-creation of thier rule and restoration of thier Taliban type state, like they had in 1996-1999?
If they do not represent the will of majority of Chechen population, why should we negotiate with them? Why we should fall into their demands?
If they represent the will of majority of Chechen population, how do you explain that majority of Chechen popultaion approved constitution which says that Chechnya is part of Russia and participated in election of Chechen presidents twice?
We already negotiated with persons whom we considered moderate and who didn't support terroristm. One of such persons was Ahmad Kadyrov who fought agaist Russians during first war, and furthermore, who was the spiritual leader of all Chechens in the first war. Later, absolute majority of Chechen population elected him as their president.
Why the hell we should negotiate with terrorists? Should Spain negotiate with ****s who blew their trains? Should US negotiate with ObL?

quote: Yet Russia calls for a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Pals, and criticizes Israeli actions that are far less harsh than what Russia has done in Chechnya. Does THAT mean that Russia supports Hamas and its "suicide" bombers? I wouldnt say so, but that seems to be the implication of the above logic.

Russia do not support any form of terrorism. I may be wrong, I'm not really sure, but from what I know the right of Pals to have their own state was confirmed by UN and Russia, USA and EU are trying to stop the violence and find political solution. I'm not sure that Russia agitating for negotiations with Hamas or any other terrorists.

quote: 3. Supporting the views of Nemtsov and others on economic and political liberalization doesnt imply agreement with everything the Russian liberals say.

Nemtsov was among the ****s who ruined and pillaged my country during Eltsin's rule. In other words... nevermind. I'm not a fan of him.

quote: 5. Criticism of Putin from Russian newspapers doesnt prove there has not been oppression of the press. One reads here that he has virtually eliminated opposition TELEVISION, not newspapers.

Blah...two TV chanels were closed becuase their owners are ****s who wanted in Russia for their economical crimes during reign of Yeltsin. And it's a Putin's fault that those two ****s are criminals who pillaged Russia for ten years and stolen billions of $$$?
And btw, he is criticized on TV too, not only in papers or web.

	13-09-2004 08:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Russia do not support any form of terrorism. I may be wrong, I'm not really sure, but from what I know the right of Pals to have their own state was confirmed by UN and Russia, USA and EU are trying to stop the violence and find political solution. I'm not sure that Russia agitating for negotiations with Hamas or any other terrorists.

It's sort of funny. People kvetching about Chechnia couldn't just be trying to 'stop the violence and find a political solution' as well?

What a shock that people who blow up children with homicide bombs, or other acts of terrorism, are not seen as reliable people to negotiate with.

	13-09-2004 09:06									#131
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It's sort of funny. People kvetching about Chechnia couldn't just be trying to 'stop the violence and find a political solution' as well?

We already found the political solution with majority of population of Chechnya- the solution is to stay in Russia, not in Taliban-like "state" they lived between 1996-1999. Most of them voted for this on referendum. Why should we find political solution with small terrorist groups that do not represent the will of entire population? Why?
Had most of the Chechens wanted to live in their independent Taliban type state, they would fought for this state when Russians entered Chechnya in 1999. Don't you understand that the reason why Maskhadov and co, switched to terrorist tactics, is that most of the Chechens refused to fight for this gang of bastards and their independent medieval nightmare thay called independent Ichkeriya? In 1994, most of the Chechens supported them and there was a full scale partisan war, which Russians simply couldn't win, becuase nobody can win war against entire people, except to completely exterminate this people.
There was war, everyday between 1994-1996, becase Russians fought vs. entire Chechen people (well, not vs. entire, but vs. majority for sure). It doesn't happen now. There is no full scale partisan warfare of 1994-1996 type, now in Chechnya, becuase most of the people already lived in Maskhadov's kind of independent Chechnya between 1996-199, know perfectly wtf is this, and don't want more of this sh!t anymore. It's the only reason why Maskhadov and co, switched to terrorism, becuase they have no alternative, because they know they are just a banch of desperates- this time their own people against them.
Why should we negotiate with this gang of desperates, who killing our children.
And how the hell it could be called "negotiation", if the only acceptable result of such negotiations for them is re-creation of their rule, recreation of their beloved Taliban-type state? It should be called "capitulation". Why don't you say that "Russia shoud surrender to terrorists", why hiding this under "Russia should negotiate" BS?

	13-09-2004 09:14									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Interesting. So Berz, suppose that native americans native to one of the states started committing terracts and demanded the return of that state in it's entirety to their exclusive political control. Further let's imagine that one state is the state you live in. Let's also suppose that unexpectedly most of the non native americans flee the state so that incredibly a native american majority is established there. Given that US history has consisted of hundreds of years of genocide, marginalization and oppression of native Americans would you then recomend that the best response to these terracts be to grant independance to the state you live in under the political control of the native americans? Doesn't your pov suggest that the best thing for native americans to do to regain what was there's would be to commit terracts so everybody can point to their hundreds of years of oppression and grievances and call the rest of the americans the real villians?

Perhaps I need a pair of glasses, but I can't find Berz's resonse to this question.

	13-09-2004 09:27									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It's pretty stupid, becuase when something smells like sh!t and looks like sh!t it definetly deserves to be called sh!t.

I don't think many atlases would carry through with renaming your country 'sh!t', some would deem it offensive...

	13-09-2004 11:09									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Serb And how the hell it could be called "negotiation", if the only acceptable result of such negotiations for them is re-creation of their rule, recreation of their beloved Taliban-type state? It should be called "capitulation". Why don't you say that "Russia shoud surrender to terrorists", why hiding this under "Russia should negotiate" BS?

I'm not suggesting that Russia should be expected to negotiate or find accommodation with these scum. Why do you expect Israel to negotiate and find accommodation with Arafat?

	13-09-2004 11:30									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't think many atlases would carry through with renaming your country 'sh!t', some would deem it offensive...

I don't think you should be called insulting faggot, some would deem it offensive...

	13-09-2004 11:37									#136
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm not suggesting that Russia should be expected to negotiate or find accommodation with these scum. Why do you expect Israel to negotiate and find accommodation with Arafat?

Personally I do not expect anything. Btw, is Russian possition towards ME, somehow different from US and EU posstions?

	13-09-2004 12:19									#137
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Right. There are a lot of people who expect Israel to negotiate for peace with terrorists, but I was asking you.

	13-09-2004 12:40									#138
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I have to say that in both the israeli/palastinian crisis and the Russian/Chechian crisis I find the real villains and obstacle to peace to be the terrorists.

Having said that I still feel compelled to point out to those who condemn a double standard with respect to the crisis in Chechnya and the crisis in palastine, that the two situations have at least one very important difference.

In Chechnya people of all religious and ethnic backgrounds enjoy equal rights and protection under the law. In palastine there are marked discrepancies in rights and legal protections between non jewish palestinians and everybody else. The two situations are not identical in that respect. Terrorism in both cases is an unacceptable outrage against all humanity. However there are probably grounds for some sort of civil disobediance or other form of peaceful protest against the Israeli government while I don't see any justification for such measures in Chechnya against the russian government.

The two issues are not quite identical so it might not be reasonable to call anybody who treats them differently a hypocrite.

	13-09-2004 16:00									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No, kinda interesting omission don't you think? You seem to think centuries of Russian atrocities are unrelated to the atrocities now and I see them linked. **** Most certainly wise, what happened in the past is likely the cause of what is happening today. Funny how history works like that... **** I read your links. The Russians have been butchering Chechens for centuries and you think the Russians are oppressed by Chechens. Go figure...

Does this mean you support Chechens Berz?

	13-09-2004 16:12									#140
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Serb, I say you again :

quote: Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. -George W. Bush, August 5th, 2004

	13-09-2004 16:56									#141
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Hopefully the situation in Chechnya isn't as far gone as the situation in the West Bank And Gaza. By that I mean hopefully the cult of death hasn't set in and martyrdom isn't as much as a way of life.

	13-09-2004 18:05									#142
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Serb, I say you again :

It was my sig for a couple of days. King George II is the great source of wisdom and honesty.

	13-09-2004 18:35									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I don't think you should be called insulting faggot, some would deem it offensive...

	13-09-2004 18:53									#144
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Negotiating a settlement with terrorists is problematic. Negotiating a settlement with the people who the terrorists claim to be fighting for would be the best thing, I think. The trouble is that one needs a leader from those people whose hands aren't drenched in blood. It's not likely that such a leader will be totally clean, but one must be realistic.

This is the problem Israel faces, and Russia faces the same problem. Neither is going to "win" by just fighting and killing terrorists. But neither can negotiate and sign a treaty with those terrorists. Each needs the elusive "partner for peace." Please note that my saying this does *not* mean I am unaware that both Russia and Israel have done things that have contributed to the problems they now face. I would think that's rather obvious.

The U.S., IMO, has an even more vexing problem. With whom are we to negotiate? The entire Arab world? The entire Muslim world? We have a lot of hate to deal with, and so far we've done a piss poor job of dealing with it.

-Arrian

p.s. Interesting article in Slate today regarding Sharia law in Canada...

	13-09-2004 19:42									#145
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Just go Roman on their ass. Thanks to modern technology, you can kill them all.

	20-09-2004 22:58									#146
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Serb, some of the guys that fight in Chechenia are terrorists, but not all of them I guess

	20-09-2004 23:37									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Serb, some of the guys that fight in Chechenia are terrorists, but not all of them I guess

Some of them are simply bandits and some of the guys who fight in Chechnya are Russian soldiers.

	20-09-2004 23:52									#148
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Some of them are simply bandits and some of the guys who fight in Chechnya are Russian soldiers.

Yes. Chechenians are a nation of bandits and terrorists

	21-09-2004 00:03									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Yes. Chechenians are a nation of bandits and terrorists

I mean of those who fight. And I clearly quoted your message.

	21-09-2004 00:13									#150
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You mean, to fight for independance against Russia is terrorism and banditism?