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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:23
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I heard somewhere that he predicted something like 'Hilter will rise' which everyone took to be 'Hitler' mispelled, except that the little river that ran past his house was the Hilter...
I don't know it it's true.
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:23
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"Hister". Commonly used to refer to the Danube.
quote:
Consider, for instance, the most famous of Nostradamus's predictions: The coming of Adolf Hitler. Well, maybe. This is pretty much the Holy Grail of Nostradamus prophecies (aside from the forged 9/11 passage, of which we will say more momentarily). Erika Cheetham, author of The Final Prophecies of Nostradamus, corrects the obvious misspelling of "Hister" to "Hitler" in her translation, as Nostradamus enthusiasts are wont:
Bêtes farouches de faim fleuves tranner;
Plus part du champ encore Hister sera,
En caige de fer le grand sera treisner,
Quand rien enfant de Germain observa.
Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers,
The greater part of the battle will be against Hitler.
He will cause great men to be dragged in a cage of iron,
When the son of Germany obeys no law.
Whoa!! That sure sounds like Hitler! Of course, when skeptic James Randi translated the verse, he got something a little different. Unlike Cheetham, Randi interprets Hister as a reference to the lower Danube river, a section of which is actually named Hister. The Randi version:
Beasts mad with hunger will swim across rivers,
Most of the army will be against the Lower Danube.
The great one shall be dragged in an iron cage
When the child brother will observe nothing.
Uhhhhh.. Yeah, that's, uh, well, uh... Not so much the Third Reich. A third translation, lifted from the nonpartisan Sacred-Texts.com, splits the difference:
Beasts ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers:
The greater part of the region will be against the Hister,
The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage,
When the German child will observe nothing.
Not so clear. You can't really tell from this whether Nostradamus was really foretelling Hitler. In fact, it's damned hard to figure how the idea these verse actually applied to Hitler ever came about. Actually, it's not that hard to figure. Hitler himself decided that the verses were about him and disseminated the idea for one of the most dramatic successes in the history of propaganda.
Oops.
We could go on and on, but we predict... Nay, we prophesy that others have done it before, and will do it again, without changing the minds of those whose minds were made up before they read the first word of this article. Suffice to say, it's wise to take the Prophecies of Nostradamus with a grain of salt... or maybe a whole shaker. |
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/nostradamus/
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Mercator
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Sorekara no Nanimo
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Also, the original text says "Pasteur", not "Le Pasteur". Nostradamus always includes "le" or "L' " when he means a noun. |
Which I can easily counter with this quote:
quote:
In the French version, the word "pasteur" is in lower case, which suggests that it was not a reference to a person because all references to actual places with specific names where capitalized. |
quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Nostradamus was an astrologist. The date is from an astrological point of view. While "horoscopes" don't necessarily mean anything, the cycles of the moon, where it is in the sky, stuff like that, are all scientific. |
Well, I'm sure, but I can hardly find anything about any great lunar cycles on Google. There's one page that says it's 354.6 years, while another says 18.6, and I can't find anything about when they begin or end. I tried various searches and I usually either end up with references to the Mayan calendar, or links to an "explanation" of this very passage of Nostradamus.
Besides, why use the date of the founding of the Pasteur Institute, when it's supposed to be about his discovery of the germ theory? In that case it would be more than ten years off at least (assuming that lunar cycle thing is actually correct)... The margin of error is getting bigger and bigger.
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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Mercator
Well, I'm sure, but I can hardly find anything about any great lunar cycles on Google. There's one page that says it's 354.6 years, while another says 18.6, and I can't find anything about when they begin or end. I tried various searches and I usually either end up with references to the Mayan calendar, or links to an "explanation" of this very passage of Nostradamus.
Besides, why use the date of the founding of the Pasteur Institute, when it's supposed to be about his discovery of the germ theory? In that case it would be more than ten years off at least (assuming that lunar cycle thing is actually correct)... The margin of error is getting bigger and bigger. |
1st: I'd rather trust astrologers with dates of cycles than I would a guy with a search engine. The lunar cycle thing is a table by which astrologers follow the signs: thus, Nostradamus following the table is a perfect way to keep the time, as long as he follows the same cycles that all others do. Therefore, if astrologers agree that the cycle begins in 1535 and ends 1889, the end of the cycle is a specific date, not just a random beginning and ending. Therefore, he made an exact date.
2nd: 10 years off is still the end of a 300 year cycle. I'm sure you'd agree that 1990 is towards the end of the 20th Century.
3rd: I only put this out there for speculation. I don't expect you to become an instant follower of Nostradamus, or anything supernatural. I, personally, choose to follow this because a.) it brings in a non-literal perspective and b.) its fun to try to decipher what he was saying.
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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
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Well, it took some searching but I found a few:
quote:
The Mystical Chronology is a wonderful little book full of esoteric Christian gems of wisdom. It begins,
"Most wise Emperor, this lower world, created and organized by the First Intelligence, who is god, is ruled by Secondary Intelligences. Hermes, who gave us the science of the Magi (our ancient Chaldean/Sumerian star gazers), confirms this when he says that seven spirits were assigned to the seven planets from the beginning of the heavens and of the earth.
"Each of these Spirits rules the universe in turn for a period of 354 years and 4 months...The first angel or spirit, that of Saturn, is called Oriphiel. God confided the government of the world to him starting with the beginning of creation."
The chronological order is difficult to cipher, since he begins in the first year of the world (book of Genesis), and counts forward in time, so that the first cycle seven rounds is completed on June 26, 2480 and the second cycle of seven rounds is completed on September 1, 4960. Transposing these cycles to our Julian calender, we have the third cycle of:
Oriphiel, from ----------245BC to 109BC;
Anael, from -------------109BC to 463 AD;
Zachariel, from ---------463 to 817;
Raphael, from ----------817 to 1171;
Samael, from -----------1171 to 1525;
Gabriel, from -----------1525 to 1879; and
Michael, the sun spirit beginning 1879.
This is obviously a septenary of Archangelic rule of 354.3 years each, but the cycles do not divide by seven evenly into an astrological age of 2160 years (308.57 years). The cipher makes more sense if a Decan cycle of one-sixth per age of 360 (instead of 720 years) years each is used and then take three Decan cycles of 600 years each (instead of 720 years) and add to it an archangelic cycle of 360 years. Then, this cipher results in our astrological age cycle of 2160 years.
Although troublesome to cipher exactly, the times of the cycle are both accurate and relied upon. Accurate because Dr. Steiner had spoken hundreds of times about the "Battle in Heaven" in the years between 1841 and 1879, wherein the Spirits of Darkness belonging to Ahriman fought the good spirits of Archangel Michael (pronounced, Mic-ha-el), prior to his regency beginning year 1879. Relied upon, because Dr. Steiner devoted and dedicated his whole life's work to the regency of Michael.
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http://www.vermontel.net/~vtsophia/zodtrop1.htm
Here's another
http://www.placeoftheskull.com/angeliccycle.html
There does seem to be discrepencies in the years...but calanders of different peoples have different dates.
Here's another, with Hebrew reference:
quote:
Let us define a "Grand Year" to be the set of years either from a year 1 NISAN to 1 NISAN or from a year 1 TISHRI to the next 1 TISHRI. Thus, a Grand Year may comprise 353, 354, 355, 383, 384, or 385 years, each being referred to as if it were a day on the Hebrew calendar. |
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci...10meridian.html
And finally, a Nostradamus site:
quote:
In this model, the existence of the world is divided in periods of 354 years and 4 months, each period ruled by a planet. The first period of 354 years and 4 months is ruled by Saturn, the second by Venus, the third by Jupiter, the fourth by Mercury, the fifth by Mars, the sixth by the Moon and the seventh by the Sun. Then a new series of periods begin, with the first one ruled by Saturn, etc. Roussat took this model from LIBER RATIONUM, written in the 12th century by Abraham Ibn Ezra. |
http://cura.free.fr/xxx/26berk2.html
This last one is the one most likely adopted by Nostradamus. 1535 to 1889 would be the "period of the Moon".
So, Nostradamus was going upon this notion. Besides being an astrologer, he was also a Jew who hid from the Spanish Inquisition by "converting" to Catholicism, and is often noted to have combined the two faiths.
Oh, and the googleness was: "354 Years" Lunar Cycle
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:23
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1879 != 1889. In prophecy, "close" doesn't count. Or, as they say in sports, a miss is as good as a mile.
quote:
The chronological order is difficult to cipher, since he begins in the first year of the world (book of Genesis), and counts forward in time, so that the first cycle seven rounds is completed on June 26, 2480 |
Excepting the fact that the "first year of the world" as described by Genesis is a mere 4.5 billion years off the real "first year of the world", the timeline given us by your passage makes no sense and isn't relevant to the planet that we live on.
And note the fudging, crimping, and downright hand-waving the guy has to go through in order to make the numbers work:
quote:
This is obviously a septenary of Archangelic rule of 354.3 years each, but the cycles do not divide by seven evenly into an astrological age of 2160 years (308.57 years). The cipher makes more sense if a Decan cycle of one-sixth per age of 360 (instead of 720 years) years each is used and then take three Decan cycles of 600 years each (instead of 720 years) and add to it an archangelic cycle of 360 years. Then, this cipher results in our astrological age cycle of 2160 years. |
Puh-leeze. And it didn't help your argument to quote the following babble:
quote:
Although troublesome to cipher exactly, the times of the cycle are both accurate and relied upon. Accurate because Dr. Steiner had spoken hundreds of times about the "Battle in Heaven" in the years between 1841 and 1879, wherein the Spirits of Darkness belonging to Ahriman fought the good spirits of Archangel Michael (pronounced, Mic-ha-el), prior to his regency beginning year 1879. Relied upon, because Dr. Steiner devoted and dedicated his whole life's work to the regency of Michael. |
The calendar's "accuracy" is dependent not upon any observation, empirical or otherwise, but because the originator of the theory spoke a lot about some "Battle in Heaven" that took place in the mid 19th-century? This is evidence?
Btw, here's what I Googled:
354 year great lunar cycle
354.6-year great lunar cycle
353 year long lunar cycle
354 year long lunar cycle
Last edited by JohnT on 12-09-2004 at 06:36
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12-09-2004 01:02
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