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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
I don't think he's discredited at all by you simply because you don't understand astrology (and neither do I.) |
Astrology doesn't work, plain and simple.
Do you realise that we aren't really "ruled" by the sign we are suppposed to "born under" because of an interesting little thing called precession?
I also found it absurd to lump 6+ billion people in the world in 12 pigeonholes. If astrology says that a Tarus will get hit by a falling object today, does that mean 500 million people will get hit like that?
In half-decent tests astrology fails miserably:
quote:
Here are some of the formal tests that have been done.
In 1971 the Survey Research Centre of the University of California, Berkeley sampled 1000 adults in the bay area getting information on natal signs and lots of attributes claimed by astrology to correspond. For instance, Leos are supposed to have good leadership qualities. An analysis by Ralph Bastedo found no correlation for leadership, political stand, intelligence, belief in astrology, musical ability, artistic ability, confidence, creativity, occupation, religion, ability to make friends, to organise or to feel deeply. This showed that these tendencies do not differ between signs, so natal signs cannot be used to predict personality traits.
In 1979 Michel Gauquelin put an advertisement in Ici-Paris offering a free horoscope. Recipients were asked to reply saying how accurate they and their friends found the horoscope. Of the first 150 replies, 94% percent said it was accurate as did 90% of their friends and family. Unfortunately, they all got the same horoscope, that of Dr. Petiot, a notorious mass murderer.
In 1982 Australian Skeptics collected thirteen newspaper horoscope columns for the last week of August, rated them for good, bad and vague predictions about News, Health and Luck; Relationships; Finance and Travel. They found very little consistency, in fact most signs had a fairly even spread so, for instance, you could find one paper telling you it would be a lucky week and another saying the opposite. This shows that newspaper horoscopes are essentially random.
In 1985, Harry Edwards checked all the predictions from Old Moore's Almanack for 1984. These were written by a couple of top astrologers. Of the 200 predictions it was possible to check, less than 5% materialised and practically all of those could have been based solely on probability, prior knowledge or astute speculation. Astrologers are no better than pastry cooks, taxi drivers or any of us at predicting. |
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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
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That still doesn't refute the dozens of quatrains Nostradamus has made that directly effect his country and time period, and soon thereafter. To refute him you have to actually refute the quatrains, not the methods behind them. I posted a few of the many that have come to pass with marginal interpretation, as opposed to the ones supposedly about the current era, which do require a fair amount of interpretation.
Astrology also has much more to it than simply "the signs we're born under". There is a very large method to the cycles of the stars, constellations, planets, etc.
In fact, if you look at Nostradamus' first two quatrains, they indicate his method: while he relies on astrology for explanation (and coding, for he prophecised during the Spanish inquisition), his methods are believed by him to be divination from a higher power (he was after all influenced by occult Jewish literature).
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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Well, TES, looking at your first prophesy:
quote:
For examples, this is one supposedly about Napoleon:
C3Q35
From the very depths of the West of Europe,
A young child will be born of poor people,
He who by his tongue will seduce a great troop:
His fame will increase towards the realm of the East. |
Except Napoleon was born into a prominent family of the Corsican Nobility. Not "poor people."
Another of your prophesies:
quote:
C1 Q25
The lost thing is discovered, hidden for many centuries.
Pasteur will be celebrated almost as a God-like figure.
This is when the moon completes her great cycle,
but by other rumors he shall be dishonored.
From Erika Cheetham:
"Another fascinating quatrain which contains not only the name of Pastuer but also a very specific dating although not apparent at first. Pasteur's discovery that germs polluted the atmosphere was one of the most important in medical history, and led to Lister's theory of sterilization. The Encyclopedia Britannica says that Pastuer, the 'demi-Dieu,' 'was now the acknowledged head of the greatest chemical movement of the time.' He founded the Institute Pastuer on 14th November 1889; the cycle of the moon ran from 1535 to 1889. The rumours that dishonoured him may mean the violent opposition to his methods which were roused among powerful members of the Academy, against the new practices of the Institute such as vaccines against hydrophobia etc." |
Pasteur's ideas were hidden for many centuries? When "many centuries" earlier were they known? And the God thing is proposterous, he doesn't fit the bill. And finally, there's the lunar cycle thing - which actually ends in 1879, right?
And so forth.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Well, a lot of people seem to be overlooking actual backed arguments for sheer semantics. |
Cow, what "actually backed arguments?"
Let me quote the following, from The Mask of Nostradamus, by James Randi, pp 142-143:
quote:
One very basic principle of logic is called parsimony. I referred to it earlier. It says that simple explanations, rather than complex ones that require grand assumptions and convoluted reasoning, are most often correct. This is a principle studiously avoided and denounced by the Nostradamians. |
quote:
Some "authorities," such as Erika Cheetham, are not discussed here simply because their work is nor properly enough researched. Cheetham has French King Louis XV as the son of the "Sun King," she appoints Philippe Egalite, the Duke of Orleans, as the brother of Louis XVI (he was not related), and she startles us with the assertion that Henry IV was a member of the Valois line (hardly!). She mixes up astrological signs and characteristics as well as history in any fashion that serves to prove her points. |
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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
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I thought that I did a pretty good job going back upon what I said early and actually backing up my belief in Nostradamus with much more conceivable quatrains. But of course, you'll overlook that.
The first one you mention is actually more probable of Hitler. The second is up to much more interpretation, though everything that isn't known by people is, in fact, "hidden". Plus, the astrological calander is different depending on the different astrologers; however, the germ theory was, as one poster pointed out, ten years before the institution was created...which would, in fact, be 1879, wouldn't it?
But I'm glad you refuted my much better backed argument including quatrains from the first two centuries, which are only a few of dozens that Nostradamus has less "vagury" regarding...oh, wait...you didn't.
Regarding your second post: Cheetham isn't my only source...in fact, go back and read the actual texts, and then the history behind them. YOu'll find the closer you get to nostradamus, the less vague the quatrains are, simply because he had more knowledge of what he saw, rather than trying to explain what an airplane is.
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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
I don't have to refute each and every one TEF (and I still don't know which ones you're referring to). Throw a few thousand darts and some might hit the mark. Even more when the prophecies can fit any situation. The way you simply interchange Napoleon and Hitler demonstrates that perfectly.
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Throw a few thousand darts? How about dozens out of 1000, and I didn't even scratch the surface with the ones I posted! Cities, names, dates, and symbols are all used by Nostradamus to indicate what he sees; they aren't just random choices.
That particular quatrain has been noted as either Napoleon or Hitler. Since N isn't around to say which, we can only interpret. However, there are many MANY that aren't vague...since you obviously (by your own indication) didn't read my post, I'll bump it for you:
quote:
The problem with Nostradamus is, the further you get from France and from the Renaissance, the more his quatrains need interpretation. However, those that regard France and are within a few hundred years are far more believable, because they are things Nostradamus can understand. How can someone back then understand airplanes, atomic weapons, or skyscrapers?
A lot of people who question Nostradamus don't look and the prophecies that occur around Europe and near to his time, but rather those which he couldn't understand in a Medieval setting, and thus are more open to interpretation. I have included some that are more specific than the ones most who discredit Nostradamus are accustomed to, along with explanation.
Viable, believable Nostradamus Quatrains:
quote:
C1, Q3: The French Revolution
When the litters are overturned by the whirlwind and faces are covered by cloaks, the new republic will be troubled by its people. At this time the reds and the whites will rule wrongly. |
The aristocracy of France was carried in litters. A litter overturned is symbolic of the overturning of the controlling aristocracy by the "whirlwind" aka Revolution. Red is the color of the Revolution and White the color of the Bourbon kings. Anyone who knows something about the French revolution knows that the people in control thoroughly handled their new power with bloodthirsty contempt, ie "wrongly", because it didn't lead to a great enlightenment in France.
quote:
C1, Q47: The League of Nations
The speeches of Lake Leman will become angered, the days will drag out into weeks, then months, then years, then all will fail. The authorities will condemn their useless powers. |
I believe that everyone knows the failure that was the League of Nations, with useless speeches that led to nothing. During the time of Nostradamus, Lake Geneva was known in France as Lake Leman, which is where the first LoN assembly was held in 1920.
quote:
C1, Q 72: French Casualties during WWII
The inhabitants of Marseilles completely changed, fleeing and pursued as far as Lyons. Narbonne, Toulouse angered by Bordeaux ; the killed and captive number almost one million. |
The Vichy puppet government of WWII included Narbonne, Toulousek, and Lyons, while the exile French government fled to Bordeaux. Meanwhile, the Germans occupied Marseille, certainly a "habitants changees". The official French casualty lists 675,000 killed or wounded Frenchmen, with an unknown amount of captives/prisoners of war.
quote:
C1, Q98: Napoleon's Expidition to Egypt
The leader will conduct great numbers of people far from their skies, to foreign customs and language. Five thousand will die in Crete and Thessaly, the leader fleeing in a sea-going supply ship. |
Napoleon brought many people from France to foreign shores. When he left Egypt 1789, he left the Turks a force of 5,000. At the time, the Turks controled both Thessaly and Crete. Napoleon did flee in a wooden ship that wouldn't be picked up by the British patrolling Mediteranean waters.
quote:
C2, Q1: The Dardanelles, WWI
Towards Aquitaine, by British assaults, and by them also great incursions. Rains and frost make the terrain unsafe, against Port Selin they will make might invasions. |
The Allies opened up a front against Turkey (where Port Selin is located) while France (Aquatiane) and Britain were deadlocked with Germany on the Western front. In order to reach Constantinople (the city where Port Selin is located), they had to attack the DArdanelles. During the time that they planned and eventually enacted this attack, the forces met with incredibly dreadful weather.
quote:
C2, Q51: The Great Fire of London 1666{/quote]
The blood of the just will be demanded of London burnt by fire in three times twenty plus six. The ancient lady will fall from her high position, and many of the same denomination will be killed. |
3 X 20 + 6 = 66. The Great London fired occured in 1666 (London burnt by fire). Many Cathoic churches in London were destroyed along with many parisioners, including the Catheral of St. Pauls, one of the oldest churches in London.
quote:
C2 Q67: James II and William of Orange, 1688/9
The blond one will come into conflict with the hooknosed one, in a duel and will drive him out. He will have restored the exiles commiting the strongest to the marine places. |
Even in the Renaissance era, the "blond one" was understood to be William of Orange. From Erika Cheetham:
"William's party drives out James II in 1688, but the Stuart party (les exilez) decided to reinstate him and put all their efforts into a sea battle. James based himself in Ireland and was aided by the French fleet. In 1690 the Allies were badly beaten at sea off Beachy Head but on the same day William III won the Battle of the Boyne and James was forced to flee to France, from which he never returned. The British fleet did not finally subdue the French and assure her maritime supremacy for anotehr two years at Cap la Hague in 1692".
quote:
C2, Q99: Failure of Napoleon's Russian Campaign
Roman land that the augur interprets, will be greatly molested by the French nation. But the French will come to dread the time of the North wind having driven their fleet too far. |
Rome (the Vatican states in those days) was a part of the French empire by 1810, as most of Europe was, which had centuries ago been Roman territory, and the French certainly "molested" Italy. The French army was then defeated in Russia, partially by cold windes (Boreas) and the overcommitment of troops by Napoleon. The North very much at the time was the people of Russia.
These are just a few quatrains from 2 out of 10 Centuries, dozens of which are much more feasable than the ones people without much knowledge of Nostradamus focus on.
Also, often in his messages, Nostradamus includes a few symbols: The Lion, the ****, the Eagle, the Bear, and the Sun. The Lion and **** were symbols of England and France even at his time, but what of the rest? The Eagle is most often associated with quatrains that are thought to be about the US, which wouldn't exist until over 200 years after his death. The Bear is often opposite the Eagle, and was a symbol of the USSR about 400 years after his death. The Sun is most often used in quatrains regarding WWII, which is probably Japan's (Land of the Rising Sun) most active international war. Maybe these mean nothing; I like to think that he doesn't just use random symbolism, however, because he doesn't indicate a Monkey or a Tiger or a Kangaroo anywhere. |
The fact is, you have done nothing to refute these, but instead went around them to other, less backable quatrains, and insisted that I didn't use the "proper French".
I could put a dozen more up, even more than that, but you'll ignore them. I must get some sleep.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Regarding your second post: Cheetham isn't my only source...in fact, go back and read the actual texts, and then the history behind them. YOu'll find the closer you get to nostradamus, the less vague the quatrains are, simply because he had more knowledge of what he saw, rather than trying to explain what an airplane is. |
Perhaps he wrote about events that had happened, or events that were very likely going to happen during his time?
For example, there is a manuscript in the New York Public Library, author unknown, challenging the existence of the 1555 first edition. Some intriguing evidence include the inability for Count von Klinkowstrom to locate either a copy of the book itself or "...the Privilege du Roy (royal permission to print) for the first edition, in Lyon or elsewhere. That permit would have been required and would certainly be on record."*
* James Randi
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
"The south of England" refers to Southern England, correct? "The West of Europe" refers to Western Europe. |
In any case, Hitler was born in Austria, which by no means is western Europe, but rather Central Europe. The whole notion of central europe sort of evaporated during the Cold War, but that doesn't make Hitler a child of the west.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
That particular quatrain has been noted as either Napoleon or Hitler. Since N isn't around to say which, we can only interpret. However, there are many MANY that aren't vague...since you obviously (by your own indication) didn't read my post, I'll bump it for you: |
I didn't think those were the quotes that you meant since you kept getting into hissy fits about the prophecies during Nostros' time period as particularly accurate. And sorry, but the French Revolution x 3, WW I, the League of Nations, or WW II aren't any closer to his time period than the original prophecy that you claimed predicted Nappy (but then changed when I pointed out the obvious flaw in that interpretation). Indeed, only two of the eight prophecies are any closer, and they're still off by a century. Anyways, take this for instance:
quote:
quote:
Roman land that the augur interprets, will be greatly molested by the French nation. But the French will come to dread the time of the North wind having driven their fleet too far. |
Rome (the Vatican states in those days) was a part of the French empire by 1810, as most of Europe was, which had centuries ago been Roman territory, and the French certainly "molested" Italy. The French army was then defeated in Russia, partially by cold windes (Boreas) and the overcommitment of troops by Napoleon. The North very much at the time was the people of Russia. |
1. You do realize that France had been involved in Italy for centuries, don't you? Around the time of Nostro's own birth, France was involved in Milan and Savoy in fact.
2. There wasn't any North Wind that blew away Nappy's fleet, AFAIK. Them's the facts. As I said, you can use these sorts of silly metaphors to represent anything. Maybe the fleet was a colonial expedition. Who knows.
Then what is he saying? That Hitler was a young child when he was born? 
Last edited by Ramo on 12-09-2004 at 13:58
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
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I'd like to say the quatrain purporting to be about the Glorious Revolution is a load of vague waffly bollocks, with no direct link whatsoever to any of the participants.
Where on earth did this sh!te about William of Orange being referred to as 'the blond one' since 'the Renaissance' come from?
Date of Glorious Revolution = 1688
Dates of Renaissance = pick whatever date you feel best serves to separate 'the Renaissance' from the Middle Ages, at some point in the 14th/15th centuries.
Now who exactly are we meant to believe was referring to William of Orange/William III of England as 'the blond one' for the nearly three hundred years preceding his birth?
And more to the point- why wouldn't they be referring to William the Silent, who was also a William of Orange as 'the blond one'?
How inconvenient to have so many Orange Williams who might or might not have been blond.
Then this 'hooknose' tripe. I've heard James II called many things, Papist, horse's arse, the king across the water, but hooknose, hookie, hookster, no.
Not once.
The Jacobites didn't put all their effort into a sea battle- it was the Battle of the Boyne, on land, in Ireland where they massed their greatest force.
It was a French fleet that defeated the Anglo-Dutch forces at sea.
William didn't duel with James, and hadn't driven him out- James fled before William and Mary arrived in London.
Battle of the Boyne 12th July 1690
Beachy Head? Two days later, not on the same day at all.
In any case, the language is so vague as to dates, places and people, it could be talking about a skirmish on the Sea of Azov, or Lake Titicaca.
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12-09-2004 12:34
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