19-09-2004 10:48									#181
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Quitters never win, and winners never quit.

	20-09-2004 23:24									#182
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jrabbit

quote: Anyone who cares about the HOF enough to seriously discuss it should be purged.

1. not a good PR move.
2. not necessary.
3. not enough people cared to have a veterans committee so I doubt we'd have any interest in this- although of course- more people like to complain than like to make things better.

	20-09-2004 23:25									#183
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Leaders

1. El Awrence- [35] (36) 45---116
2. Spiffor- [34] (39) 43---116
3. Solo- [29] (42) 43---115

Kramsib- [37] (30) 32—100
Samson- [34] (26) 39---100

alexman [16] (40) 51--97

DarkCloud- [26] (30) 37—93

Immortal Wombat- [37] (21) 20--78
Master Zen- [26] (20) 32—78

Berzerker- [7] (23) 43--72

Googlie- [23] (27) 21---71

WesW- [16] (30) 24--70
Theseus- [12] (25) 33—70
Fez/Giancarlo- [12] (29) 18-- 70

Jasev- [31] (16) 16--63

Yaroslav- [27] (18) 13--60

Ted Striker- (19) 38--56

Harlan- [27] (19) 8--- 54

Skanky Burns-[15] (17) 20--53

Dr Strangelove- [18] (14) 20---52

Paddy the Scot- (25) 25---50

La Fayette- [4] (13) 30--47

OzzyKP- [9] (19) 18---46
Dominae- [4] (19) 23—46

Jamski- [9] (16) 20---45
Mr. Ogre- [36] (6) 3---45

loinburger- [4] (18) 22---44

Urban Ranger- [29] (6) 6---41
Togas- [16] (20) 5---41

Dr Spike- [13] (7) 20--40
Sagacious Dolphin/Big Crunch/Dauphin- [19] (11) 9--40

MLeonard- -----[14] (10) 15---39

Alinestra Covelia [14] (10) 14---38

Malevolent Light- [8] (14) 15--37

MrWhereItsAt- [14] (16) 4---34

korn469- ---- [11] (16) 6—33
Shi Huangdi- [10] (13) 10---33
Zeus_of_Olimpos- [4] (25) 4---33

Kassiopeia- [10] (10) 10---30

	20-09-2004 23:25									#184
	Increase the size of your Attachments

over 150 voters

	20-09-2004 23:30									#185
	Tired of ads?

I gotta admit I like the idea of separate HoFs. However, it would be hard to qualify some people, and it would also lead to about everyone being in in the smaller communities. Like in the CtP community, we'd soon see all the participiants in .

I am always trying to vote for people who have contributed something to the site, or who have contributed a LOT to my enjoyment of it. My votes for HoF members aren't the same as my votes would be for "Funniest poster this month" or something like that,

I believe there are some people in HoF whose contributions aren't that great, no offense - the reason I'm saying this because a lot of people who have contributed lots to the site still aren't in. DarkCloud himself is just one example.

	21-09-2004 01:18									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Solver I believe there are some people in HoF whose contributions aren't that great, no offense - the reason I'm saying this because a lot of people who have contributed lots to the site still aren't in. DarkCloud himself is just one example.

Very good point

	21-09-2004 01:20									#187
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quote: My votes for HoF members aren't the same as my votes would be for "Funniest poster this month" or something like that, I believe there are some people in HoF whose contributions aren't that great, no offense - the reason I'm saying this because a lot of people who have contributed lots to the site still aren't in. DarkCloud himself is just one example.

That's why we get to vote... It ain't Solver Appointed for a reason, else we would only have stiffs in that list

	21-09-2004 21:13									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That's why we get to vote... It ain't Solver Appointed for a reason, else we would only have stiffs in that list

. Just keep voting rights to on-topicers only .

	24-09-2004 20:44									#189
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quote: I believe there are some people in HoF whose contributions aren't that great, no offense - the reason I'm saying this because a lot of people who have contributed lots to the site still aren't in. DarkCloud himself is just one example.

Well, to that I just have to say- thank you
-
Personally I have a long list of people I'd like to vote for; but I guess that's what makes the hall relevant- if everyone who deserved to be in WAS in, then there would be no point in voting
-
Hmm... I've been toying with a modification of Locutus' suggestion and classifying posters into On-Topic and Off-Topic categories.

Regardless of votes received, I think it might be a good idea to limit Off-Topic inductees to one per every 2 on-topicers inducted each session.

I realize this might raise some controversy, but I also feel that it might help raise a more egalitarian feel about the hall.

The reason for doing this is twofold
1.) On Topic is why this site was created.
2.) Off-Topicers vastly outnumber/are registered longer than on topicers.

what would people's comments on this issue be?

	24-09-2004 20:50									#190
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Personally I have a long list of people I'd like to vote for; but I guess that's what makes the hall relevant- if everyone who deserved to be in WAS in, then there would be no point in voting

I can make my position more clear - it's atrocious that some people still aren't in, and then we could vote on the rest .

As for on-topic/off-topic split, you know my opinion, I fully support that. It will give a chance to many brilliant on-topic contributors (which ARE the main part of the site after all) who'd never get voted in otherwise because they don't post in OTF. WesW is one example, he doesn't stand much of a chance now. OK, Civ2'ers are maybe an exception, but that's because a large portion of OTF are former Civ2 players who do remember contributions to Civ2 community. However, the CtP and Civ3 contributors are in a muc weaker position, with SMAC in between.

	24-09-2004 21:06									#191
	Remove this text

I see no reason to change it... now that the on topic forums are "block" voting in many cases, it can offset the supposed advantage of the OTF voters.

Every election we are seeing more an more On Topic people rising to the top.

If a lot of people don't think a persons contributions are worthy (whether it is for something specific, or just overall posting) they won't get the votes. While some people poke fun at the OTF, and claim they have the "advantage"... I just say, look at the traffic. The site is what it is, and that's a fact.

And let's get serious... it's not like this is OFFICIAL... it truely is a popularity contest. DC is the one that keeps track of it... changes the rules whenever he wants... and you won't find an OFFICIAL list anywhere else on the site besides his posts. So lets have fun...

	24-09-2004 21:13									#192
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quote: So lets have fun...

That is the point afterall.

	24-09-2004 21:15									#193
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quote: If a lot of people don't think a persons contributions are worthy (whether it is for something specific, or just overall posting) they won't get the votes.

I disagree. It's the point of not knowing the person. For an example, let's take Velocyrix, although he's a bad example . He was voted in because he's known for Civ3, SMAC, Candle'Bre and everything. His contribution to SMAC community is immeasurable. Yet, if he never posted outside of the SMAC section, he'd probably never be in. A better example would be hexagonian. His contributions to the CtP community are great, yet his posts outside of the CtP section and in OTF especially are few enough so that others don't know of him, and can't care less because they never played CtP. Same goes for WesW.

quote: While some people poke fun at the OTF, and claim they have the "advantage"... I just say, look at the traffic. The site is what it is, and that's a fact.

Yes, OTF has a traffic advantage. But the site is what it is indeed - and it's a Civilization gaming site. Which does mean that Civ2/3/CtP/SMAC forums are the main part and the most important one.

quote: And let's get serious... it's not like this is OFFICIAL... it truely is a popularity contest.

Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, DarkCloud himself wants it to be more of a list of people with great contributions, not a popularity contest. Which are two different things - some of the popular posters may well be idiots who curse at others, provide no insightful posts and get banned every month, twice.

	24-09-2004 21:19									#194
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DC,

Your proposal sounds very good to those of us who seldom go to, much less post in the OTF. It does seem that the current structure of the Hall makes the whole process a popularity contest among jiber-jabbers who have little interest in the games the site was created for. (Relax: that was hyperbole)

But, taking the next step and setting a bright-line criteria for making the division between On and Off Topic seems impossibly arbitrary and subjective. What will be the deciding factors??

And you best go find some flame retardent for your clothing....

Monk

	24-09-2004 21:37									#195
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quote: Your proposal sounds very good to those of us who seldom go to, much less post in the OTF. It does seem that the current structure of the Hall makes the whole process a popularity contest among jiber-jabbers who have little interest in the games the site was created for. (Relax: that was hyperbole)

Yes, well said overall, with all the hyprebole . If the HoF isn't meant to be a simple popularity contest (which, I believe, is exactly what is wasn't meant to be), then it's a good idea.

quote: But, taking the next step and setting a bright-line criteria for making the division between On and Off Topic seems impossibly arbitrary and subjective. What will be the deciding factors??

With many people, it would be rather easy. There are, after all, not that many people who actively post both on and off topic. As for these people, I'm sure something could be worked out. One is to ask them where they want to belong. Another might be to take their posting statistics, like how many posts on/off topic in the last month, or something along those lines.

	25-09-2004 02:38									#196
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WhoTF is Samson?

	25-09-2004 03:01									#197
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quote: WhoTF is Samson?

The one on the right is Samson.

	25-09-2004 03:02									#198
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Is the one on the left Delilah?

	25-09-2004 03:29									#199
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I think to solve the problem of OTF overrepresentation, all you would have to do is post the HoF threads on the on-topic forums only.

	25-09-2004 03:32									#200
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No-one cares about on-topic people, they're boring, they don't talk

	25-09-2004 03:32									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Is the one on the left Delilah?

Nope, that's Gert.

http://users.skynet.be/cocachoc/eng-samson.htm

	25-09-2004 05:28									#202
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Solver Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, DarkCloud himself wants it to be more of a list of people with great contributions, not a popularity contest. Which are two different things - some of the popular posters may well be idiots who curse at others, provide no insightful posts and get banned every month, twice.

As I said... it's not like this is official or anything... and some might argue the OTF posters who are getting in are the ones that do contribute to the site by just posting on a regular basis... these are forums

And some of the on topic posters could be idiots too

This attitude of OTF posters don't deserve to be in because they are OTF posters is just elitest crap...

On topic posters who some think "deserve" to be in are taking advantage of block voting... so they can get in if they truely deserve it. The Civ II folks have been wonderful at voting in deserving people

So don't whine... just vote for who you want. Everybody has a different opinion of who is deserving... Deal with it, and just have fun.

	25-09-2004 05:36									#203
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ming As I said... it's not like Grandpa Troll is "officially" a moderator that is yet to be announced .. and some might argue that Grandpa Troll is " the poster-idiotius" This attitude of those whom dont like Grandpa troll, well its gotta stop because the attitude against Grandpa Troll is just elitest crap... So don't whine... just vote for Grandpa Troll who you want to vote for because he supports me and well..he should be in PERIOD!. Everybody has a different opinion of who is deserving... Deal with it, Grandpa Troll is in because I said so and just have fun.

Umm Thanks Ming but I would really rather be "voted in"

just remember the whole hanging chad thingey..it will work in Florida it most certainly will get by these bums

Ok

Il go back to sleep now

Peace

Gramps

	25-09-2004 16:49									#204
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I'd like to thank everyone that voted for me!

	25-09-2004 17:01									#205
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VOTE ON ME, YOU BUNCH OF GEEK NERDS!!!

	25-09-2004 22:21									#206
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Let's get one thing straight: Off Topicers deserve to be in the HoF. The HoF would not be complete without names like Adam Smith, JohnT or Stefu (among others). The intention of the HoF is (quoting the first sentence of this thread) to be "a list of people who contributed a lot to the community here on Apolyton". In reality it's more a popularity contest, but it's not a bad thing to strive for more. And as far as these contributions go, they have been made by on topicers and Off Topicers alike. Apolyton would not be what it is today without the OT, and many OTers have been active in on topic communities in the past (if they aren't still).

However, no matter how you look at it, the inductions of for example EVC, paiktis22 and Zylka are controversial: not everyone will agree that they deserve to be in. Some people don't, some people do (or they wouldn't be in). That in itself is fine, controversy is part of any HoF. OTOH, I don't think many people would argue against the case for people like Googlie, Harlan, hexagonian or Stefan Hδrtel (and others like them). Some people may not know them, but of those who do, I'm sure virtually all will agree that they deserve to be in the HoF. Yet they aren't. That clashes with the very intention of the HoF.

So if the HoF is organised in such a way that a lot of controversial posters (who incidentally mostly happen to post in the OT) are getting loads of votes while a lot of other (on topic) contributors who are at least as deserving simply aren't being inducted, it only makes sense to change the setup to even the odds.

At first the HoF was OT-only. Because virtually only the OTers were inducted, it was moved to other forums as well. That was a big improvement IMHO. Before this, only 3 out of 40 people were inducted who did not or only rarely posted in the OT (Snowfire, yin26, Xin Yu -- and I'm not even sure about yin). Since then, 5 out of 16 people were inducted who were mostly on topic posters (Paul, oedo, UnOrthOdOx, Scouse Gits, War4Ever), and judging by the current top 20 nominees that number will grow rapidly in the future. I'm not saying OT posters are not worthy, but not all worthy HoF candidates post in the OT. So the new situation is a lot more balanced.

Looking at the list of votes as it currently stands, I see a fairly balanced mix of Civ2ers, Civ3ers and OTers -- I for one feel these three categories are all fairly represented. However, there are very few posters from the other categories (CtP1, CtP2, SMAC, Alt Civ, other) and most of those posters are in a position where they're not likely to be inducted within the next year (if ever) -- they're underrepresented IMHO: the CtP1/2, SMAC and Alt Civ communities are all important parts of this site now and were even more so in the past. Also, Darkcloud has indicated that the vote of the Civ3 community is going to weigh much heavier in the future, which means the Civ3ers might end up dominating the HoF in the future the way OTers have done until now. That would also be a bad development, especially since Civ3 is by far the youngest game (of the actual Civ games).

So IMHO changes in the HoF setup are required that will ensure Civ3 will not dominate too much in the future, and to give especially the CtP and SMAC contributers fairer representation. I propose a system of categories: every time there is a HoF vote, a fixed number of slots would be available for the seperate sections of Apolyton: Civ2, Civ3, OT, CtP1 and/or CtP2, SMAC, Alt Civ, General. The number of slots would be up to DarkCloud to decide (even retroactively if necessary: if very few SMACers are voting and it's a close contest between two OTers, a SMAC slot could be converted to an OT one afterwards), and not every category (especially the small ones such as Alt Civ or CtP1) might be represented during every vote. I'm sure there would be plenty of b*tching that some categories are getting too many/few slots, but there's plenty b*tching now so I'm sure DarkCloud is used to that Votes from Other Games, Community, RoN, MoO, etc could all go in a General category. For those people who get votes in multiple categories, all their votes are automatically moved to the category where they end up getting the most votes (so that 'allround' posters aren't punished for not consistently sticking to one section of the site).
Other than that the HoF would remain the same though: it should remain one HoF (so not a seperate HoF for Civ3 and a seperate one for OT, etc -- keep the list as it is now) and everyone still only gets 3 votes (so you can't vote seperately for 3 SMACers and 3 OTers -- just 3 votes total).

Anyway, that's my €0.02...

Last edited by Locutus on 25-09-2004 at 22:32

	25-09-2004 22:30									#207
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So when the OT dominates the voting it's fine but when Civ 3 does it the rules must be changed?

Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?

	25-09-2004 22:34									#208
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No, I don't think either should dominate, there should be a fair balance. I was one of the most insistant people (if not THE most insistant) into pushing DarkCloud to move the HoF out of the OTF and into the other forums. DC was very reluctant to do so himself.

	25-09-2004 23:16									#209
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HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

The anti off topic, elitist snobs of the on topic forums continue to whine like stuck pigs...

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

EVERYBODY that is on the list is deserving, BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY VOTED THEM THERE.

It will always be a matter of OPINION on who belongs in.
Just because the current people don't match your personal view of "who is worthy" doesn't make them any less so.

There is no need to change it... it's working fine. Those that OTHERS think are worthy will get the votes or not. If your little club of "special people" aren't in... it's your fault for not promoting them and lining up votes. And if you can't, they maybe they just aren't worth if you can't get people to vote for them.

So enough of the OT people suck crap that keeps getting repeated over an over again. It just sounds like a bunch of pathetic whining to me.

If you really are disturbed, start your own HOF... that's all DC did. Remember, this isn't an official anything... just his personal threads. It has no real standing anywhere on the site... Hell, the owners even asked him to change the name since they already have an Apolyton Hall of Fame...

So again folks... don't treat this like life and death... it's supposed to be fun. And everybody currently in has done something valuable enough for the community for their peers to deem them worthy.

	25-09-2004 23:23									#210
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ok you been warned
next stop....

The dungeon where Ming will "encourage" all to listen..

I have been there
he well..has ways
to make you appreciate his point of view

so please dont whine or dont get stuck like a pig

or "just like a hog"

Gramps

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