16-09-2004 06:13									#61
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1/10.

That was trully pitiful.

	16-09-2004 06:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Damn those professionals who know what their doing for not consulting Civilization players.

If the OTF took turns controlling the US military actions in Iraq I'm sure all the people in this thread, who are experts in military strategy and military ethics, would be pleased as they would never make mistakes and handle everything perfectly. The only time they would not be pleased would be when it was not their turn. As it is now they never get a turn.

	16-09-2004 14:17									#63
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Sort of like the late stages of a Civ III game.

	16-09-2004 14:43									#64
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I still wonder why the word "terrorist" is used to describe the people who attacked the tank.

It is an act of non-terrorist guerilla in the purest definition of the word. To call the perpetrators of this attack "terrorists" demeans the word into becoming "anybody we d'ont like"

	16-09-2004 14:46									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Seems to be the case with all wars. The opposite opionion usually happens after the war.

I cannot find any war that I wouldn't describe as "horrifying", even with decades of hindsight. And I can't think of any war that was "good in theory" either, even though I know many believe the Serbia war and the Afghanistan war were "good in theory".

	16-09-2004 14:47									#66
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quote: And I can't think of any war that was "good in theory" either

American Revolution

	16-09-2004 14:47									#67
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yeah, thus making the true terrorists more exceptable.

	16-09-2004 14:55									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten American Revolution

Ah yeah, I didn't think about independence wars, that's right. The ones I thought about (Algeria and Indochina war), I saw from the perspective of a colonial war, instead of the perspective of an idenpendence war.

	16-09-2004 15:02									#69
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Well, the whole debate is stupid. Was WWII good? no. Doesn't mean the allies shouldn't have fought it...

	16-09-2004 15:07									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, the whole debate is stupid. Was WWII good? no. Doesn't mean the allies shouldn't have fought it...

The whole debate is stupid, but I'll nitpick with you nonetheless: WW2 was definitely bad in theory, except in the sick megalomaniac mind that started it. In general, you evaluate the "moral" aspect of the war on the motivations of those who start it.
WWI was pure imperialism and nationalist bigotry. WWII was the product of a sick mind and a will of revenge by a Volk. I can't see how we lubrul weenies can consider them any "good in theory".

Now, I'm not judging those who had the war thrust upon them. When you're invaded, it is quite the default behaviour to wage war.

	16-09-2004 15:09									#71
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quote: In general, you evaluate the "moral" aspect of the war on the motivations of those who start it.

In that case, would you support a war in Iraq if you believed that Bush was really to create peace and prosperity in Iraq?

	16-09-2004 15:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel In that case, would you support a war in Iraq if you believed that Bush was really to create peace and prosperity in Iraq?

I would have been far less opposed than what I was (and still am). I would have been opposed nonetheless, because I'd have considered that the democracy he'd established would be bunk, given that populations have to develop their own democratic traditions by themselves if democracy is to be successful, and not at gunpoint.

	16-09-2004 15:25									#73
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So, the goals are not your consideration, but the effects... I fully agree with you.

	16-09-2004 19:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I still wonder why the word "terrorist" is used to describe the people who attacked the tank. It is an act of non-terrorist guerilla in the purest definition of the word. To call the perpetrators of this attack "terrorists" demeans the word into becoming "anybody we d'ont like"

good point. I suspect most of these people are not terrorists.

If they attack the U.S. military- they are not terrorist. Period.

Now the attacks on the police stations against men who haven't even signed up for the police force yet could be considered terrorism. Because those attacks are meant to terrorize the civilian populations. where as attacks against the U.S. military are designed to get the U.S. to withdraw.

	16-09-2004 20:12									#75
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quote: Now, I'm not judging those who had the war thrust upon them. When you're invaded, it is quite the default behaviour to wage war.

Unless you live in France. Then the default behavior is to join them.

	16-09-2004 22:01									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As the say, a picture is worth a thousand words- a video far more. The worth of keeping some ammo out of the hands of insurgents was far lower than the harm of having a bunch of civilians, even ones celebrating a burning US vehicle, killed, especially in front of the cameras.

Why? Who gives a **** if they hate us? There are two requirements to win recruits for an insurgency. First, potential recruits will need to hate the coalition in general and the US in particular, second they will have to believe that they can win and make a difference in the fight against the coalition in general and the US in particular. There is no shortage of dumb arses in Iraq who hate the US (although blowing up this Bradley obviously removed a bare handful of some of these), but I think there are far fewer who believe they can defeat the coalition militarily. Standing by and letting the crowd celebrate and unfurl a terrorist banner in front of a burning US armored vehicle in front of cameras will generate a hell of a lot more of the latter than killing the sobs will generate of the former.

	16-09-2004 22:13									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cool, we got two terrorists among the 35 who weren't! GO TEAM! There are probably much better ways to destroy these vehicals without killing crowds.

Two? are you really that stupid? only the two ****tards who had the banner were really terrorist sympathiser? jesus christ. If join up with a little happy social gathering around a burning jewish synagogue and two of the happy party goers unfurl a nazi swastika banner, should I be indignant if onlookers mistake me for a Nazi? The moment that banner appeared the 'party goers' around that bradley should've had the half a gram of sense required to realise that this was the wrong gang to chum with.


Secondly, I couldn't care less about whether we destroyed the already destroyed vehicle further or not. That should not have been the objective anyway. The point of the thing should've been to disrupt the terrorist's camera opp of showing how they were defeating the infidels.

	17-09-2004 00:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Two? are you really that stupid? only the two ****tards who had the banner were really terrorist sympathiser? jesus christ. If join up with a little happy social gathering around a burning jewish synagogue and two of the happy party goers unfurl a nazi swastika banner, should I be indignant if onlookers mistake me for a Nazi? The moment that banner appeared the 'party goers' around that bradley should've had the half a gram of sense required to realise that this was the wrong gang to chum with.

In a gathering among people who don't know each other (such as a protest), it's very difficult not to look in solidarity with people with whom you disagree. You can brand a whole anti-Sharon protest as "antisemitic" because a few loud *******s in the crowd chanted "Death to the Jews". Yeah, it probably means that each and every person there is an antisemite and should be dealt with accordingly

quote: Secondly, I couldn't care less about whether we destroyed the already destroyed vehicle further or not. That should not have been the objective anyway. The point of the thing should've been to disrupt the terrorist's camera opp of showing how they were defeating the infidels.

So, instead of an obscure Camera-op that would have been watched by a few thousands Arabs (because TV wouldn't have aired such an ordinary happening), you had the whole world watch at the way you shoot rockets at civilians

It's good to see such cooperation with the terrorists, when you do their PR job for them

	17-09-2004 02:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Why? Who gives a **** if they hate us? ---

Anyone who wants to actually liberate Iraq, instead of having a guerilla war without end.

	17-09-2004 02:15									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Two? are you really that stupid? only the two ****tards who had the banner were really terrorist sympathiser? --- been to disrupt the terrorist's camera opp of showing how they were defeating the infidels.

Destroying the invader's military vehicles in a partisan war is not terrorism. There are many kinds of opposers to USA in Iraq, so save the word terrorism for those who actually commit terror acts.

Waving a flag is not a crime that deserves instant capital punishment, no matter how much you hate that flag.

	17-09-2004 02:35									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Destroying the invader's military vehicles in a partisan war is not terrorism. There are many kinds of opposers to USA in Iraq, so save the word terrorism for those who actually commit terror acts. Waving a flag is not a crime that deserves instant capital punishment, no matter how much you hate that flag.

Sorry but I'm not interested in turning Iraq into a policing situation. It's war until they have enough time to have their one shot at real democracy (HA!) in a few months and I want US troops out of there the moment that time arrives whether it looks like they will botch that one chance or not. I don't think the US had any business getting involved with the damn place in first place. So no, I don't want waving an enemy flag to be treated as a crime I wanted it treated as an act of war and the flag wavers treated as armed enemies at war. I don't want luvy-duvy-I-hope-they'll-love-us-now measures to be used where it will make the occupiers look weak and vulnerable. I understand they will hate us, almost all of them. So I see no reason to invite them to percieve weakness. And allowing them to pose for the cameras with a terrorist banner on one of our destroyed vehicles would be asking for exactly that to occur.

They hated us before, they hate us now they will hate us in the future

Just so long as they respect the US's military power until such time as we come to our senses and get the hell out of that worthless shithole I couldn't care less.

	17-09-2004 02:40									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Anyone who wants to actually liberate Iraq, instead of having a guerilla war without end.

Liberate them? how on earth do you 'liberate' a country by occupying it indefinately? There's no point in making them like us because there is no point in our making plans to remain there indefinately. Let's prop things up long enough to get those early elections done and then it can be their baby.

	17-09-2004 02:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor In a gathering among people who don't know each other (such as a protest), it's very difficult not to look in solidarity with people with whom you disagree. You can brand a whole anti-Sharon protest as "antisemitic" because a few loud *******s in the crowd chanted "Death to the Jews". Yeah, it probably means that each and every person there is an antisemite and should be dealt with accordingly quote: Secondly, I couldn't care less about whether we destroyed the already destroyed vehicle further or not. That should not have been the objective anyway. The point of the thing should've been to disrupt the terrorist's camera opp of showing how they were defeating the infidels. So, instead of an obscure Camera-op that would have been watched by a few thousands Arabs (because TV wouldn't have aired such an ordinary happening), you had the whole world watch at the way you shoot rockets at civilians It's good to see such cooperation with the terrorists, when you do their PR job for them

TV airs burning US vehicles all the time and a burning US vehicle with a crowd of people perched on it waving a terrorist banner would have grabbed page one for sure.

	17-09-2004 02:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Liberate them? how on earth do you 'liberate' a country by occupying it indefinately? There's no point in making them like us because there is no point in our making plans to remain there indefinately. Let's prop things up long enough to get those early elections done and then it can be their baby.

The name of the operation was "Iraqi Freedom", remember? So that must be the strategic goal. But I think you and I agree that US had no business there in the first place, so you should go after those who support the war.

	17-09-2004 02:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The name of the operation was "Iraqi Freedom", remember? So that must be the strategic goal. But I think you and I agree that US had no business there in the first place, so you should go after those who support the war.

I plan on 'going after' at least one of those who supported the war come a certain election day this november.

	17-09-2004 03:00									#86
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So that's either Bush, Kerry, or anyone in the Senate or House of Representatives...

	17-09-2004 03:24									#87
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exactly

	17-09-2004 03:51									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Japher So that's either Bush, Kerry, or anyone in the Senate or House of Representatives...

Lemmings

	17-09-2004 03:52									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident good point. I suspect most of these people are not terrorists. If they attack the U.S. military- they are not terrorist. Period. Now the attacks on the police stations against men who haven't even signed up for the police force yet could be considered terrorism. Because those attacks are meant to terrorize the civilian populations. where as attacks against the U.S. military are designed to get the U.S. to withdraw.

Why wait for them to get training? This isn't terrorism, it's simply destroying the seeds before they sprout. Would bombing a bus on it's way to boot camp be terrorism?

	17-09-2004 04:29									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Waving a flag is not a crime that deserves instant capital punishment, no matter how much you hate that flag.

Dancing around a burning vehicle about to be blown up however is.