13-10-2004 05:20									#61
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Vodka: Uhm how many of those tornadoes were actually used in Kosovo? 1? 2?
If you were the ones that bombed those refugee caravans then I admit I was wrong...

I've never said military targets werent worthy ones for tactical strikes. but look at hese guys, waiting for the running people to stack up....sick

	13-10-2004 05:25									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Clearly you are articulate every waking moment, regardless of the situation. For example, I once drove by the scene of a fairly severe automobile accident. Now, shockingly, my first reaction was "Oh crap." Does my failure to use SAT-level vocabulary to express my emotions render me a heartless, cold blooded killer.

	13-10-2004 05:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Verto: hehe its you with your unbelievable crap who are trolling. If I was still in the army, I would have some sence of pride not to use weapons like that. If its a worthy cause, i'm willing to die unlike you corrupt americans. Go eat your big macs

Nah, sounds like you're just trying to put some spin on the fact that you cant afford all our toys.

quote: Originally posted by MrFun

Nice response.

	13-10-2004 05:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Vodka: Uhm how many of those tornadoes were actually used in Kosovo? 1? 2? If you were the ones that bombed those refugee caravans then I admit I was wrong... I've never said military targets werent worthy ones for tactical strikes. but look at hese guys, waiting for the running people to stack up....sick

We don't have enough video to be sure as to whether this is an atrocity or just an ordinary military strike.

What if a group of people attacked an iraqi police station firing smg's and rpgs at the police station from nearby cover as has happened on numerous occasions this year? Presumably the nearby cover might be hit with an airstrike causing the attackers to scatter away from the police station into the nearest road. We might expect the pilots to fire on the fleeing crowd in that instance because partisan fighters that cannot be captured almost always return at a later time to inflict more damage. If that is the sort of situation we are seeing in this video then, that would certainly not constitute an atrocity of any kind. It would just be good sense.

	13-10-2004 05:27									#65
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Verto: be my guest and try to justify this in your sick minds...indeed im only jealous...whoa get a grip

	13-10-2004 05:28									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Nah, sounds like you're just trying to put some spin on the fact that you cant afford all our toys. Nice response.

Your troll did not deserve an articulated response.

	13-10-2004 05:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo We don't have enough video to be sure as to whether this is an atrocity or just an ordinary military strike. What if a group of people attacked an iraqi police station firing smg's and rpgs at the police station from nearby cover as has happened on numerous occasions this year? Presumably the nearby cover might be hit with an airstrike causing the attackers to scatter away from the police station into the nearest road. We might expect the pilots to fire on the fleeing crowd in that instance because partisan fighters that cannot be captured almost always return at a later time to inflict more damage. If that is the sort of situation we are seeing in this video then, that would certainly not constitute an atrocity of any kind. It would just be good sense.

indeed who knows, do you?

	13-10-2004 05:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Verto: be my guest and try to justify this in your sick minds...indeed im only jealous...whoa get a grip

You don't need a sick mind to justify this. Check out my post just above.

The video doesn't tell us much of anything.

Imagine a video where we see 6 unarmed guys running away from a doorway towards the camera get mowed down by a guy with a submachine gun. obviously it is a sick atrocity right? only a diseased mind could not see that right? Well what if behind the camera was a room containing a bunch of schoolchildren who were being held hostage by the group that included the 6 guys and their detonator had failed to blow up the room with the hostages so they were running to try to make sure the explosives went off before the hostages could be freed? would it be an atrocity then? You are acting as if this little grainy video of about 1 minute actually offers us any context whatsoever instead of a little audio/visual tidbit of a much larger and vastly more complex situation.

	13-10-2004 05:35									#69
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if, if, imagine? yeah lets start to write fantasy

	13-10-2004 05:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius if, if, imagine? yeah lets start to write fantasy

Exactly! That is what you are doing when you just flatly state bald faced that this must be an atrocity and that only a sick mind could not see otherwise. You're filling in the unknown context of the situation with a fantasy of your own devising.

For the record I acknowledge that it is possible that the video may in fact show an atrocity of sorts depending on the circumstances surrounding the action. I admit that I do not know and I hope I can find the details of the context somewhere.

	13-10-2004 05:40									#71
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Im filling it with the most likely scenario/the information the vid gives us.

Of course I dont have the infomation from the ground, but so dont you. The difference is that I'm having a higher moral ground under these circumstances than you. Even if they were combatants, its still pretty cowardly act. have some self respect

	13-10-2004 05:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Im filling it with the most likely scenario/the information the vid gives us. Of course I dont have the infomation from the ground, but so dont you. The difference is that I'm having a higher moral ground under these circumstances than you. Even if they were combatants, its still pretty cowardly act. have some self respect

Self respect is recognizing that war isn't a game. People getting killed sucks and if by fighting 'unfair' you can ensure that only one side has to do the dying you have made the war at least that much less terrible. The war fighting style that you are advocating appears to be calculated to repeat the experience of ww1 in every combat situation. Just what possible bennifit is such a bankrupt prescription supposed to offer?

	13-10-2004 05:49									#73
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Well perhaps I would pick only fight I'm willing to fight in. Maybe this Iraqi **** is something you shouldnt have done in the first place. Now prepare to die for your sins. Its the "blind bombings" like this that breed new al-qaida material. Have fun with your expensive toys, let the 40 million poor americans rot instead, spending money in this shits more important.

	13-10-2004 06:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Well perhaps I would pick only fight I'm willing to fight in. Maybe this Iraqi **** is something you shouldnt have done in the first place. Now prepare to die for your sins. Its the "blind bombings" like this that breed new al-qaida material. Have fun with your expensive toys, let the 40 million poor americans rot instead, spending money in this shits more important.

At least we can both agree that the Iraq invasion was an obvious blunder.

I doubt that it was a "blind bombing" though. Every time they bomb from the air these days they have intelligence suggesting a combatant or military target is present. Too bad the track record of the intelligence is so lousy but even so that isn't blind bombing. Blind bombing would be the nighttime bombing that was done in ww2 or terrorist bombing where you don't much care what's underneath the bomb when it goes off so long as it doesn't belong to you or an ally.

	13-10-2004 06:29									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo At least we can both agree that the Iraq invasion was an obvious blunder. I doubt that it was a "blind bombing" though. Every time they bomb from the air these days they have intelligence suggesting a combatant or military target is present. Too bad the track record of the intelligence is so lousy but even so that isn't blind bombing. Blind bombing would be the nighttime bombing that was done in ww2 or terrorist bombing where you don't much care what's underneath the bomb when it goes off so long as it doesn't belong to you or an ally.

Oh come on!

So they have live feed from there? What use is that in this case for example? Bombing an unknown crowd of fleeing people is just as blind as bombing sleeping civilians like the Allies did in the WW2....

	13-10-2004 06:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Oh come on! So they have live feed from there? What use is that in this cae for example? Bombing an unknown crowd of fleeing people is just as blind as bombing sleeping civilians like the Allies did in the WW2....

You are operating on the assumption the crowd's identity is unknown.

	13-10-2004 06:34									#77
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And? What assumption are you operating under? Guilty as charged? I believe innocence until proven otherwise

	13-10-2004 06:37									#78
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Oh come on! So they have live feed from there? What use is that in this case for example? Bombing an unknown crowd of fleeing people is just as blind as bombing sleeping civilians like the Allies did in the WW2....

Why are you so sure that the military wanted to bomb an unknown crowd? We obviously have nothing to go on apart from the short video but you can't possibly believe that this little video containts all the information the military had as well.

Do you insist that all crowds are by their very nature unknown? What about lynch mobs? What about prison breaks? What about a crowd appearing from an area that was verified to contain only combatants?

	13-10-2004 06:39									#79
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quote: Of course I dont have the infomation from the ground, but so dont you. The difference is that I'm having a higher moral ground under these circumstances than you. Even if they were combatants, its still pretty cowardly act. have some self respect

BS. Your just assuming your've got moral highground by having fantasies that they are an unarmed civilian crowd just running down the street. From the video you can only tell its a crowd moving down the street. You don't know sh*t else. Also all your crap about 'fighting like a man up close and personal', your've never been in the army before have you?

Also to me it doesn't sound like hes getting his rocks off either. Verto does have a point with his 'troll" earlier about saying oh crap. What should the airman have said?

	13-10-2004 06:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius And? What assumption are you operating under? Guilty as charged? I believe innocence until proven otherwise

It is easy to prove otherwise. Remember those fantasies I described earlier? In many of those cases the 'guilt' of the crowd would be quite soundly 'proven'. We both acknowledge that we don't have the details so why do you insist that the military had no proof who the fleeing crowd in the video was?

	13-10-2004 06:43									#81
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius And? What assumption are you operating under? Guilty as charged? I believe innocence until proven otherwise

I am operating under the obvious notion that the pilot was not expressing orgasmic joy at killing people.

	13-10-2004 06:45									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho BS. Your just assuming your've got moral highground by having fantasies that they are an unarmed civilian crowd just running down the street. From the video you can only tell its a crowd moving down the street. You don't know sh*t else. Also all your crap about 'fighting like a man up close and personal', your've never been in the army before have you? Also to me it doesn't sound like hes getting his rocks off either. Verto does have a point with his 'troll" earlier about saying oh crap. What should the airman have said?

I have been to the army, thank you very much. I dont think you have beeen there though, apart from your beginners level campaign in Rise of Nation

This is exactly my point, under this information its just an "unknown crowd". Soldiers dont run like that :P Still I guess it makes you feel better to kill your presumed enemies like that. Even if they were civilians, after all they are never really innocent either right? At least theres less muslims in the world now Right?

	13-10-2004 06:48									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo It is easy to prove otherwise. Remember those fantasies I described earlier? In many of those cases the 'guilt' of the crowd would be quite soundly 'proven'. We both acknowledge that we don't have the details so why do you insist that the military had no proof who the fleeing crowd in the video was?

Because your shitty intel and military has a certain record of bombing weddings etc...

Maybe you should subscribe to some magazines or something. I recommend The economist its only 81 € a year here

	13-10-2004 06:48									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Verto No where in the clip did the pilot express any real emotion, whether it be anguish or glee.

Except when giggles and says "oh, dude", anyways.

	13-10-2004 06:49									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I am operating under the obvious notion that the pilot was not expressing orgasmic joy at killing people.

I'm not talking about orgasms here. Take your dirty thoughts elsewhere

	13-10-2004 06:50									#86
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I'm not talking about orgasms here. Take your dirty thoughts elsewhere

The original post did.

	13-10-2004 06:51									#87
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?? Why do you mix me up with that?

	13-10-2004 06:52									#88
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius ?? Why do you mix me up with that?

I didn't.

	13-10-2004 06:53									#89
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You did notice you were quoting me...right?

	13-10-2004 06:53									#90
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Well, I assume soldiers of all kinds say stupid crap when they are under pressure and fighting and stuff. Yeah, even from high above. I expect coroners to make jokes about my huge gear too when I'm just a corpse.

I believe in killing any way you can, I mean not as in general life motto, but if there should be war and you have a chance to shoot, you should do it even if it seems unfair to the other guy. Shoot them in the back while they are running, shoot them when they jump out of the planes and shoot them when they are eating or praying. It's best to kill this way.

Another question is, if the war at hand is a war we should fight. AND it's another question if the target at hand really is an enemy soldier. Now I haven't watch this video, let's make that clear now. And I won't watch it either.

Say, some folks are running at the soldiers on the ground, I say shoot them from the air if possible. However, if it's unclear if these folks are enemy or not, I say wait up and make a positive confirmation, or if unpossible to ID, but not super hot situation but a small group or few people running, I say wait it up and let it happen on the ground to avoid shooting friendlies at all cost. Depends on different things. But if there's a chance they're civies, and it was up to me (which it isn't), I'd say wait until identification has been done. At least I think that's what I'd do. I'd hope I'd do that. I don't know. I might start blasting like crazy person early on.