13-10-2004 06:55									#91
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quote: I have been to the army, thank you very much. I dont think you have beeen there though, apart from your beginners level campaign in Rise of Nation This is exactly my point, under this information its just an "unknown crowd". Soldiers dont run like that :P Still I guess it makes you feel better to kill your presumed enemies like that. Even if they were civilians, after all they are never really innocent either right? At least theres less muslims in the world now

Na I haven't, too busy studying at uni, and I'm not particulary impressed with the possibility of having to kill people someday if I do join. Don't play Rise much, more R:TW thank you :-P

Disciplined soldiers don't run like that. A armed mob might do. If it's proven that they are civilians then the bombing was obviously wrong, however I'm just stating you can't decide based on that video what that crowd was.

Though, interestingly, it does show what many automatically think of the american military with a condemnation based on that video.

	13-10-2004 06:55									#92
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I have been to the army, thank you very much. I dont think you have beeen there though, apart from your beginners level campaign in Rise of Nation This is exactly my point, under this information its just an "unknown crowd". Soldiers dont run like that :P Still I guess it makes you feel better to kill your presumed enemies like that. Even if they were civilians, after all they are never really innocent either right? At least theres less muslims in the world now Right?

The world isn't divided into soldiers and peaceful civilians. Undisciplined combatants probably outnumber disciplined soldiers historically and historically undisciplined combatants most certainly do have a track record of running like that. Do you really believe that insurgents or terrorists whose military training consists entirely of a couple of weeks at obl summer camp in afghanistan are incapable of breaking and running into the street in reaction to a nearby airstrike?

Also, you are reading some very unlikely attitudes into the other posts here. Why on earth would you assume any of us would take comfort in the death of any and every muslim? Nobody has said anything even remotely close to that.

	13-10-2004 06:55									#93
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Pekka, **** you too. I hope someone shoots you to the back too. mother****er

	13-10-2004 06:57									#94
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You don't think it's a good idea to shoot enemy where ever it is in war?

I said, if enemy can't be identified clearly enough, I support to wait it out and be sure before acting, even with some risk.

	13-10-2004 06:58									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo The world isn't divided into soldiers and peaceful civilians. Undisciplined combatants probably outnumber disciplined soldiers historically and historically undisciplined combantants most certainly [i]do/i] have a track record of running like that. Do you really believe that insurgents or terrorists whose military training consists entirely of a couple of weeks at obl summer camp in afghanistan are incapable of breaking and running into the street in reaction to a nearby airstrike? Also, you are reading some very unlikely attitudes into the other posts here. Why on earth would you assume any of us would take comfort in the death of any and every muslim? Nobody has said anything even remotely close to that.

OBL? lol, do you see OBL here somewhere? I dont. "Uuuh we got air power, we are teh bestest".

	13-10-2004 06:58									#96
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius You did notice you were quoting me...right?

Yes, I was responding to your question.

	13-10-2004 06:59									#97
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yeah, ok Pekka. You know this isnt the Winter War with rooskies coming more then you had bullets to shoot at

	13-10-2004 06:59									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka You don't think it's a good idea to shoot enemy where ever it is in war? I said, if enemy can't be identified clearly enough, I support to wait it out and be sure before acting, even with some risk.

I think he has established that he believes in war an enemy should only be shot when they are in position to immediately fire back at you.

	13-10-2004 07:02									#99
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laurentius, I wasn't referring to Iraq spesifically here. In GENERAL. At war, I think it's good idea to shoot enemy where ever it is. Of course I'm talkinga bout hypotethical situation where enemy is uniformed or at least identifiable, and the war is raging. You know. I did say, that if situation is not clear, that you can't identify if the person/group is an enemy, I support waiting and being sure, even when there's bigger risk involved. In general.
I don't see how this would be weird.

	13-10-2004 07:02									#100
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so true

Attachment: stealth.jpg
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	13-10-2004 07:02									#101
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Geronimo: No, I belive in defense not offense. If you go to the same level with your enemy and defeat them it is something you can be proud of. How could you be proud of this ****?

	13-10-2004 07:03									#102
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius OBL? lol, do you see OBL here somewhere? I dont. "Uuuh we got air power, we are teh bestest".

Do you only glance at posts before you respond to them? In my post, I had said "obl summer camp". Did you intepret that part of the post to mean that I conjectured that OBL was running in the crowd in the street? If that is the way you read posts then there is clearly no hope at all for this discussion. If you meant something else by your comment please clarify.

	13-10-2004 07:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola so true

	13-10-2004 07:05									#104
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Lefty, your picture and attitude is just the **** 90% of the world hate.

You know that shitty plane isnt so hard to down either, Serbians had one. You go jerk off your "dont mess with texas" day dreams. I only shake my head

	13-10-2004 07:06									#105
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Geronimo: No, I belive in defense not offense. If you go to the same level with your enemy and defeat them it is something you can be proud of. How could you be proud of this ****?

pride? pride? wth does pride have to do with war?

	13-10-2004 07:07									#106
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at pic.

	13-10-2004 07:08									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo pride? pride? wth does pride have to do with war?

Pride is a driving force of the military structure and doctrine, for starters.

	13-10-2004 07:08									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Do you only glance at posts before you respond to them? In my post, I had said "obl summer camp". Did you intepret that part of the post to mean that I conjectured that OBL was running in the crowd in the street? If that is the way you read posts then there is clearly no hope at all for this discussion. If you meant something else by your comment please clarify.

Would you be so kind to tell me what the hell has OBL got to do with this crowd here? I suppose you think theres an AirOBL carrier flying these soldiers to OBL "summercamps" and back to Iraq

Hello?

	13-10-2004 07:10									#109
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Lefty, your picture and attitude is just the **** 90% of the world hate. You know that shitty plane isnt so hard to down either, Serbians had one. You go jerk off your "dont mess with texas" day dreams. I only shake my head

Not yet. The decision makers were too scared of losing one of those expensive planes to use them in serbia. The serbians downed a much less expensive and much smaller and older F-117 stealth fighter. Lefty's picture is of a B2 stealth bomber

	13-10-2004 07:11									#110
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what goes up, must come down

	13-10-2004 07:11									#111
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Pride is a driving force of the military structure and doctrine, for starters.

If that is the case then why question how it is possible to maintain it in the video? If pride is a necessary part of their job then obviously their pride is just them doing their job.

	13-10-2004 07:12									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Not yet. The decision makers were too scared of losing one of those expensive planes to use them in serbia. The serbians downed a much less expensive and much smaller and older F-117 stealth fighter. Lefty's picture is of a B2 stealth bomber

OMFG !!11 How could I have mix those two up? please accept my eternal condolences.

So, your **** is easy to shoot down, must make you feel good youve spend what 50 billion? dollars on that ****. Idiots

	13-10-2004 07:21									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo If that is the case then why question how it is possible to maintain it in the video? If pride is a necessary part of their job then obviously their pride is just them doing their job.

Manditory pride? How quaint.

I suppose you are right, though. Soldiers are just drones to be programed.



I'm sure you already understand this, but I was refering to how pride is a neccesary part of the military, not claiming that it is a "soldier's job".

	13-10-2004 07:23									#114
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Would you be so kind to tell me what the hell has OBL got to do with this crowd here? I suppose you think theres an AirOBL carrier flying these soldiers to OBL "summercamps" and back to Iraq Hello?

Hello!

here's the relevant post:

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo The world isn't divided into soldiers and peaceful civilians. Undisciplined combatants probably outnumber disciplined soldiers historically and historically undisciplined combatants most certainly do have a track record of running like that. Do you really believe that insurgents or terrorists whose military training consists entirely of a couple of weeks at obl summer camp in afghanistan are incapable of breaking and running into the street in reaction to a nearby airstrike? Also, you are reading some very unlikely attitudes into the other posts here. Why on earth would you assume any of us would take comfort in the death of any and every muslim? Nobody has said anything even remotely close to that.

So 'obl summer camp' was obviously an example of a type of military 'training' in which I would expect the 'trainee' to flee in manner quite unlike that of disciplined soldiers and quite like that of the unfortunate crowd in the video. Occasionally al quaida terrorists captured almost anywhere in the world are discovered to have received a couple of weeks training at camps in afghanistan which were funded by Osama bin Laden. I guess you have heard of 'OBL air' that those various terrorists around the world have used to leave afghanistan and end up in places like north america but I missed that story. 'obl summer camp' as listed in my post is an example of a kind of 'training' which might not be expected to produce disciplined soldiers who always retreat in good order and never in a paniced rout. I didn't really make any connection between OBL and this crowd at all did I? I was addressing your absurd claim that only unarmed innocent civilians would ever flee like the crowd in the video is seen to do.

	13-10-2004 07:27									#115
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius OMFG !!11 How could I have mix those two up? please accept my eternal condolences. So, your **** is easy to shoot down, must make you feel good youve spend what 50 billion? dollars on that ****. Idiots

I think it was a complete waste of money but I have no reason to suppose the B2 **** is easy to shoot down. Maybe I can conclude that the F-117 **** is easy to shoot down because one was shot down over serbia by how would I know if the B2 **** is just as easily downed? Do you think an A-10 warthog is as easily shot down as a Cessna?

For the record now that I look at the two they do seem rather hard to mix up. It's like mixing up a B52 and an F15. And since you were specifically commenting that you thought the plane in picture had been shot down over Serbia you are certainly open to some criticism when that claim is wrong.

	13-10-2004 07:29									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Hello! here's the relevant post: So 'obl summer camp' was obviously an example of a type of military 'training' in which I would expect the 'trainee' to flee in manner quite unlike that of disciplined soldiers and quite like that of the unfortunate crowd in the video. Occasionally al quaida terrorists captured almost anywhere in the world are discovered to have received a couple of weeks training at camps in afghanistan which were funded by Osama bin Laden. I guess you have heard of OBL air that those various terrorists around the world used to leave afghanistan and end up in places like north america but I missed that stort. 'obl summer camp' as listed in my post is an example of a kind of 'training' which might not be expected to produce disciplined soldiers who always retreat in good order and never in a paniced rout. I didn't really make any connection between OBL and this crowd at all did I? I was addressing your absurd claim that only unarmed innocent civilians would ever flee like the crowd in the video is seen to do.

you can now take off the tinfoil hat

You arent fighting against Al-Qaida here. Yhe only Al- Qaidan "trainees" are perhaps the kidnapping ****ups. Insurgents arent being trained in Afghanistan even if your corrupt adminstration says so

	13-10-2004 07:36									#117
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius you can now take off the tinfoil hat You arent fighting against Al-Qaida here. Yhe only Al- Qaidan "trainees" are perhaps the kidnapping ****ups. Insurgents arent being trained in Afghanistan even if your corrupt adminstration says so

You still aren't reading the posts carefully. I didnt claim saddam and al-quaida were cooperating as our intellectually handicapped president asserted. I simply acknowledge that now that Bush has turned Iraq into a chaotic sprawl of anarchy it now makes an attractive destination for al quaida operatives to easily attack US interests in. Do you disagree?

	13-10-2004 07:42									#118
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I disagree with your assumption that the insurgents are Al-Qaida trainees. That network is pretty much dead you know. The situation as I see it is that these people are defending their homes from invaders from the bullets and rpgs they have found from the Saddam era weapon stockpiles your brave marines "forgot" to secure. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on..you.

	13-10-2004 07:56									#119
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I disagree with your assumption that the insurgents are Al-Qaida trainees. That network is pretty much dead you know. The situation as I see it is that these people are defending their homes from invaders from the bullets and rpgs they have found from the Saddam era weapon stockpiles your brave marines "forgot" to secure. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on..you.

We don't disagree as much as you think. I think the insurgency is growing and I think most of the growth is coming from Iraqis taking up arms as you describe. I also think that the number of foreign insurgents is dropping all of the time so that eventally the vast majority will be iraqis. In any event the insurgents will not be disciplined well trained soldiers now will they?