15-09-2004 01:45									#31
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Whenever I clear up after someone it usually goes unappreciated. I doubt the US admin cares who is doing the clearing up.

	15-09-2004 01:45									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Arrian, how long would you be wanting to wear that mask?

I've heard they are quite uncomfortable, but if it was a potential lifesaver, I'd put up with it. The idea being that the site gets cleaned up. Problem with that, I would guess, would be the dust being dispersed by wind and then it's impossible to just "clean up" after the fight. Nasty.

Sava: exactly, it's like pollution. Bad? Yeah. WMD? No. IMO, of course

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 01:48									#33
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I thought DU was used only for armor plating?

	15-09-2004 01:50									#34
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Personally, I think there is much much more lead particles in the air than DU to be worried about, esp. in such a warzone that is iraq. just imagine thousands of fires around the country...

	15-09-2004 01:51									#35
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quote: Begs the question- who pushed it, Nuclear Industry?

Entirely possible, but I'd guess it was a faction in the military that decided that the armor-piercing capability of DU was so great that it outweighed the health concerns. No doubt people who would be interested in unloading a bunch of otherwise useless (right?) DU would agree. The military doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to properly testing health effects of weapons (agent orange, anyone?).

My question is this: did adding DU munitions to our arsenel require any sort of Congressional approval, and, if so, how did it get through without a major fight?

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 01:53									#36
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Almost every study of DU says the stuff is dangerous as hell. If it's not radioactive (and it is) it is seriously toxic.

	15-09-2004 02:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian So the DU issue rides again. As for the article, well, I stopped reading there. Not because I think DU is harmless (I actually think the long-term health effects require serious study), but rather due to the clear slant of the article. I couldn't take it seriously. -Arrian

DU is not a WMD as defined by the Geneve & Hague Conventions or by the UN. It's funny how lefties just love international organizations and agreements until they get into the way of their silly little politics and then the UN and international treaties are just ignored.

	15-09-2004 02:09									#38
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Of course it's seriously toxic! It's a heavy metal!

My question is: how much of it there is in a single tank shell? (and I hear there are DU shells for 20mm as well, so for those, too)

	15-09-2004 02:12									#39
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The choice with depleted Uranium is much like the choice with Agent Orange 40 years ago. Either you use this in combat at the cost of possible health effects in the future or you don't use it in combat and face the certain deaths of soldiers in the field.

The question is simple. Either certain deaths now or possible health effects sometime in the distant future. Protect the soldiers now and deal with the other possibilities if and when they come up.

	15-09-2004 02:16									#40
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Generally, WTH does the US Army need kinetic penetrator shells in Iraq?

	15-09-2004 02:31									#41
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They are hardly used at all here. I do imagine DU is used to destroy buildings (like what happened in Fallujah) but I'm just guessing. In any event this entire thing has been blow out of proportion by Aljazeera but that's no surprise.

	15-09-2004 02:52									#42
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If we are worried because breathing DU dust is as dangerous as breathing lead dust, then how is DU a special villian in warfare? Would not the zillions and zillions of ordinary lead bullets also be expected to produce large quantities of a dust called lead dust which would also be as dangerous as breathing in lead dust?

	15-09-2004 03:02									#43
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It's radiologicaly dangerous (radioactive) as well as chemicaly poisonous. This isn't about Whacko Leftists Lunatics and their evil Liberal allies verses Good Sensible Rightists and their Just Plain Common Sense arguments.

Radioactive dust being blown about a populated region, and blown further afield by winds is an issue that is outside of politics in my opinion. I don't think it's so much like Agent Orange either. Thousands of British and US soldiers are experiencing serious and often fatal health effects as a result of this. You may as well make the argument that nuking a nation now is just a matter of causing a big explosion, because radioactive fallout is just a fuzzy theoretical maybe who-knows sure-there-was-that-film-Planet-of-the-Apes-but-taht-was-just-a-movie far in the future type issue, so why not use nukes more? Exact same thing.

	15-09-2004 03:16									#44
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It's called depleted because there is almost no radioactivity left in it. Plus we are talking about very, very small quantities.

This is a red herring.

	15-09-2004 03:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child I really hope Aljazeera is being biased and totally propagandist on this one.

Bullets now count as nuclear weapons? Fascinating.

	15-09-2004 03:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well bear in mind that Uranium itself it incredibly toxic.

So's lead. So are the carbon monoxide fumes from tanks. Your point?

If I'm hit by a DU bullet, I'm not really worried about the toxicity

	15-09-2004 03:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Yeah, it is not that radioactive. But when fired at such high velocities would form a dust. It would be like breathing in lead dust, not very good for you...

So lead bullets are wmd's too?

	15-09-2004 03:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Well, if the primary danger from DU would be inhaling the dust, would a gas mask help? Or is the dust too fine? -Arrian

The primary danger from DU is being hit in the chest by a lump of it travelling at high speeds

	15-09-2004 03:21									#49
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quote: It's called depleted because there is almost no radioactivity left in it. Plus we are talking about very, very small quantities.

not quite.

it is my understanding that DU is called that because all the useful uranium has been extracted from it--i.e., all the u-235 that can be gotten has been gotten, and so you have u-238 left over.

u-235, btw, is the one that can easily be used in power plants, bombs, and so on, whereas u-238 cannot be used as a nuclear weapon per se, and its utility in a power plant is starkly limited.

it is radioactive, just not at the same level as u-235.

	15-09-2004 03:21									#50
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You accuse a state of possessing WMD that denies posessing them. The denial is true, but you declare war nevertheless. To do that, you do massive use of radioactive weapons. Then you deny it.

You murder people in order to get rid of a murderer.

You make wars to secure oil, but as a result oil prices rise.

You go to war in the name of "freedom", yet you torture thousands in your own jails.

Do you know what all this means to me?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.
WAR IS PEACE.

	15-09-2004 03:22									#51
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Enough of this crap.

It's showtime.

	15-09-2004 03:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child It's radiologicaly dangerous (radioactive) as well as chemicaly poisonous. This isn't about Whacko Leftists Lunatics and their evil Liberal allies verses Good Sensible Rightists and their Just Plain Common Sense arguments. Radioactive dust being blown about a populated region, and blown further afield by winds is an issue that is outside of politics in my opinion. I don't think it's so much like Agent Orange either. Thousands of British and US soldiers are experiencing serious and often fatal health effects as a result of this. You may as well make the argument that nuking a nation now is just a matter of causing a big explosion, because radioactive fallout is just a fuzzy theoretical maybe who-knows sure-there-was-that-film-Planet-of-the-Apes-but-taht-was-just-a-movie far in the future type issue, so why not use nukes more? Exact same thing.

Good lord, you're talking as if it were plutonium or something.

	15-09-2004 03:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Enough of this crap. It's showtime.

So baseless assertions backed up with unrelated, graphic pictures is supposed to convince me of something?*

*besides the fact that you're full of it

	15-09-2004 03:27									#54
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quote: Personally, I think DU would be worse then a chemical gas attack or something. At least one can wear a gas mask.

that's your rationale?

no offense, but that's pretty stupid.

at least with a DU shell, you know there's a war going on, and you know that some **** is going down, 'cause when DU shell is being fired, the tank makes a nice big booming noise. anybody with any sense should know not to be around. and if the civilians are stupid enough to try and scavenge, well, that's darwin material for them.

with a gas attack, you can have crazies drop it on some of the busiest train lines known to man. you think Wada Eiji had the foresight to carry a gas mask with him?

	15-09-2004 03:30									#55
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quote: Enough of this crap. It's showtime.

actually, the movie is wrong.

the first nuclear war, if you go by their logic, actually happened in japan, 1945. besides, most of these "nuclear" wars have been decidedly one-way.

as far as the veterans, sucks for them. the government should seriously put its money where its mouth is and care for the vets.

	15-09-2004 03:53									#56
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Oh this is too beautiful...

quote: Originally posted by axi You accuse a state of possessing WMD that denies posessing them. The denial is true, but you declare war nevertheless. To do that, you do massive use of radioactive weapons. Then you deny it.

This would be doublespeak how exactly?

quote: Originally posted by axi You murder people in order to get rid of a murderer.

Actually I think they got rid of the murderer to get rid of the murderer. The murdering as usual was just to parry the murders directed at those doing the job. Usually I call that self defense but maybe I'll switch to calling it murder just to see if I can get a rise out of everybody.

quote: Originally posted by axi You make wars to secure oil, but as a result oil prices rise.

this one is my very favorite!

Greek guy insists US goes to war to secure oil and when circumstances suggest otherwise he complains about US double talk!

quote: Originally posted by axi You go to war in the name of "freedom", yet you torture thousands in your own jails.

Tell us more about the torture in American prisons! I sure hope if I ever go to jail it's in a Greek jail because everybody knows jails in Greece are a hell of a lot cooshier than those gulags we run in the states what with our used exercise equipment and dead batteries in the TV remotes!

quote: Originally posted by axi Do you know what all this means to me? IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. WAR IS PEACE.

Give 'em hell Axi!

	15-09-2004 04:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The primary danger from DU is being hit in the chest by a lump of it travelling at high speeds

Well, if it was your country or city that had been bombed with DU ordance, or played host to a DU tank-battle (one-sided as is) and youyr kids that then had to carry on with their life in that area after the war is done and (scuze the pun) dusted... I'm sure your attitude would be different.

	15-09-2004 04:08									#58
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quote: Originally posted by axi You accuse a state of possessing WMD that denies posessing them. The denial is true, but you declare war nevertheless. To do that, you do massive use of radioactive weapons. Then you deny it. You murder people in order to get rid of a murderer. You make wars to secure oil, but as a result oil prices rise. You go to war in the name of "freedom", yet you torture thousands in your own jails. Do you know what all this means to me? IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. WAR IS PEACE.

F*kin Aye

	15-09-2004 04:10									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So baseless assertions backed up with unrelated, graphic pictures is supposed to convince me of something?* *besides the fact that you're full of it

Those pics are of children born with deformities in Iraq Afganistan and probably Serbia. Unrelated how? Baseless in what way? The UN figures? The WHO figures?

	15-09-2004 04:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Personally, I think DU would be worse then a chemical gas attack or something. At least one can wear a gas mask. that's anybody with any sense should know not to be around. and if the civilians are stupid enough to try and scavenge, well, that's darwin material for them.

That about sums it all up, you have GOT to be a True Boni-Fide Pentagon Em-Ploy-Ee.

What you're saying is that any Iraqi/Serbian/Afghan stupid enough to live in Iraq/Serbia/Afghanistan Damn-Hell-Ass DESERVES to be whiped out, Why? Coz they're STUPID enough not to be born in America damnit! That's Why.

Or stupid enough to join the USArmy, dumb-ass white-trash/latino/black lower-income fools that they are.