15-09-2004 21:26									#91
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Frankly, war is bad for the environment, regardless. It's just that some effects are more long lasting. Chemicals from explosive ordinance are particularly nasty.

Problem is, most people don't know this. It's not so much a Darwin issue of playing with spent rounds, farming fields where DU was used, children plaing in bombed out vehicals, etc., as it is an issue of not having the information to know not to do such things.

	15-09-2004 21:27									#92
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH How do you avoid a war zone when the war zone is the streets of the city you live on?

Stay in the building?

	15-09-2004 21:32									#93
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quote: Problem is, most people don't know this. It's not so much a Darwin issue of playing with spent rounds, farming fields where DU was used, children plaing in bombed out vehicals, etc., as it is an issue of not having the information to know not to do such things.

i have no problem with them putting up warning signs. if they do do that though, then i will feel even less sorry for people who get exposed to DU by ignoring those warnings.

what i really don't get is this: it's burned out, it looks damaged, and it's got a foul smell from burning flesh and metal and gas and what not. why would you want to go near it? bad smells usually mean bad things...

	15-09-2004 21:40									#94
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Children do lots of dumb things. That's why they need adults to look after them.

	15-09-2004 21:52									#95
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children are overrated.

	15-09-2004 23:01									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Stay in the building?

For the rest of your life?

	15-09-2004 23:05									#97
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Iraq is now enjoying the FREEDOM (TM) to inhale toxic dust.

	15-09-2004 23:33									#98
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well, they also have the freedom to not breathe/breed.

	16-09-2004 01:36									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed well, they also have the freedom to not breathe/breed.

Yes, quite a few earned that freedom too.

	16-09-2004 01:47									#100
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quote: Yes, quite a few earned that freedom too.

i'm hoping that most humans in general, be they in america, europe, asia, africa, or antarctica, learn that by excersizing those freedoms, true liberty will come about.

as far as those in australia... i haven't decided.

	16-09-2004 01:53									#101
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Well if DU is principally U-238 then it won't be particularly radioactive - it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. But this radioactivity could cause a far greater threat if ingested - as well as it's toxicity as mentioned previously...

	16-09-2004 02:01									#102
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quote: Well if DU is principally U-238 then it won't be particularly radioactive - it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. But this radioactivity could cause a far greater threat if ingested - as well as it's toxicity as mentioned previously...

that's part of what the problem is. because it does aerosol upon impact and leaves a fine dust, it's very easy for people to be exposed to it.

since it doesn't leave the body easily, either...

	16-09-2004 02:06									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well if DU is principally U-238 then it won't be particularly radioactive - it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years.

U-235 is 0.7 billion years, and considering the isotopic ratios in nature are about 99 (238) to 1 (235) anyway it hardly makes a difference.

	16-09-2004 02:07									#104
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I thought 235 had a far shorter half-life than that...just checked - 700 million. And they both appear to be alpha-emitters...

	16-09-2004 02:08									#105
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nope, u-235 is 700 million yrs.

	16-09-2004 02:15									#106
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Well alpha-emitters aren't a problem - alpha radiation is easily attenuated. However it is a significant problem when ingested...

	16-09-2004 02:16									#107
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Yep, you end up burping helium for ages.

	16-09-2004 02:18									#108
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btw,

Did anyone ask the question why the radiation comes particularly in the shape of He-4 nuclei, and nothing else?

	16-09-2004 02:19									#109
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Should I attach a p-n chart?

I'm sure the derivatives decay as beta and gamma.

	16-09-2004 02:20									#110
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Well I can't vouch for what the decay products are going to do, of course...

	16-09-2004 02:22									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel btw, Did anyone ask the question why the radiation comes particularly in the shape of He-4 nuclei, and nothing else?

I think it is just a particularly stable nuclide...

	16-09-2004 02:22									#112
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quote: Should I attach a p-n chart?

I realize it's a chart with protons and neutrons, but what is it?

quote: I'm sure the derivatives decay as beta and gamma.

Not really.
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rup.html

	16-09-2004 02:24									#113
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I think some of those steps may also result in gamma emission too...

	16-09-2004 02:25									#114
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well of course, but It's a long way down to.... you guessed it, LEAD.

Anyway, this is a real interesting thing I noted: DU starts getting dangerous, but only after thousands of years...

	16-09-2004 02:27									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Should I attach a p-n chart? I realize it's a chart with protons and neutrons, but what is it?

Its a chart showing how atoms will decay, as they attempt to reach the stable corridor on the proton-neutron graph. Too many neutrons - beta decay, too many protons - alpha decay

quote: quote: I'm sure the derivatives decay as beta and gamma. Not really. http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rup.html

Sorry, I'm refering to decay chains and their derivatives.

http://www.atral.com/U238.gif

	16-09-2004 02:34									#116
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quote: Its a chart showing how atoms will decay, as they attempt to reach the stable corridor on the proton-neutron graph. Too many neutrons - beta decay, too many protons - alpha decay

Interesting.... still, you haven't answered my question: Why the rigidity, why Just He-4, and no H, or D, or T, or He-3? I mean, it would make much more sense to eject an He-3 to balance the "excess protons".

	16-09-2004 02:35									#117
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But the problem with DU is that people actually DIE and get ILL because of it. There is alot of proof about this. The only ones that deny it are the weapons manufacturers and the US government.

And please stop saying that DU must be proven to be dangerous in order to get banned; when lives are at stake, it is the assumed safety that must be put under trial, not the assumed danger.

As for the Greek jails, we are not used to incarcerate people indefinitely without trial, like you do in Guantanamo, at least not since the (US-supported) dictatorship fell. And of course we don't play perverse pshychological games with our prisoners, like you do in Abu Ghraib. And btw, the death penalty was abolished here 30 years ago.

Still we don't claim to be the champions of the free world.

	16-09-2004 02:38									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Its a chart showing how atoms will decay, as they attempt to reach the stable corridor on the proton-neutron graph. Too many neutrons - beta decay, too many protons - alpha decay Interesting.... still, you haven't answered my question: Why the rigidity, why Just He-4, and no H, or D, or T, or He-3? I mean, it would make much more sense to eject an He-3 to balance the "excess protons".

Oh, with you now.

It has to do with the stability of He-4 and the energy equation. He-4 requires less energy to create compared with He-3 or H , D or T. As you fill up a cup it leaks out of the lowest hole as it were.

	16-09-2004 02:50									#119
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Yes, this is true, but this is not really a correct comparison. If the creation energies are different, that would just mean that the rates of creation are different ( Or so it is in chem. kinetics.... )

	16-09-2004 03:05									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yes, this is true, but this is not really a correct comparison. If the creation energies are different, that would just mean that the rates of creation are different ( Or so it is in chem. kinetics.... )

The gaps between energy levels are vastly different, tens and hundreds of MeV's against eV's or maybe keV's. You probably could compare rates of creation but you'd find that the ratios are so incomparable that its just not worth considering.