16-09-2004 22:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Why is that a problem, you have been supporting dictators all around the world for ages yourselves! That's not a valid argument

Lesser of two evils is realpolitik.

	16-09-2004 22:24									#32
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Everybody south of the north pole suck.

Are you all happy now?

No? Good!

	16-09-2004 22:26									#33
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Well, the amcons have convinced themselves that France, Germany, Russia, the UN and many others who opposed the war were literally in the pay of Saddam. Not that they needed much convincing in the first place.

	16-09-2004 22:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Well, the amcons have convinced themselves that France, Germany, Russia, the UN and many others who opposed the war were literally in the pay of Saddam. Not that they needed much convincing in the first place.

Hey, referring Russia, we're willing to look the other way.

	16-09-2004 22:31									#35
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"Why is that a problem, you have been supporting dictators all around the world for ages yourselves! That's not a valid argument"

We supported the little SOBs in order to contain the big one. At present there is no good reason (Like saving western europe) to support a dictator. Also, millions in eastern europe have been liberated from under the Soviet style politburo dictatorship, partly through supporting some unsavory characters for things like base rights. Though in some cases the US policy of supporting dictators that oppose communism was just wrong, the big prize, the defeat and end of the Soviet Union, proved the policy's worth in the end.

France wasn't supporting Saddam in the UN and the world for the greater good...they were doing it because they are whoreing after $.

Last edited by Lancer on 16-09-2004 at 22:36

	16-09-2004 22:32									#36
	Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Stefu What gives?

The truth is that France had secret business deals with Saddam. They opposed the war because they did not want to lose the business partner.

	16-09-2004 22:36									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer We helped them in two world wars. The last one to get rid of a murdering dictator like Hitler. Brave Americans are planted in French soil by the thousand. Yet they put their business relationship with another murdering dictator above doing the right thing.

In both those cases we came in several years late-in the second one only after we were attacked. I didn;t see the US join the UK and France in declaring war on Germany for its aggression against Poland-heck, we only joined once attacked by Japan and post a German declaration of war on the US.

At best, we owed them ww1 for the Revolutionary War and helping us become a state.

	16-09-2004 22:41									#38
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"In both those cases we came in several years late-in the second one only after we were attacked. I didn;t see the US join the UK and France in declaring war on Germany for its aggression against Poland-heck, we only joined once attacked by Japan and post a German declaration of war on the US."

We could have just bombed a German aspirin factory and called it good.

	16-09-2004 22:52									#39
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quote: French and German rational for not going into Iraq was not humanitarian but financial. They would lose investments and debt payments. Their leadership rode the wave of public protestations against the USA. Strictly a powerplay.

So? Everyone does this. Hell, WE do that! Our rational in a lot of endevors was financial. Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, etc, etc. We wanted people who we liked in power so we could make some money, even if they were murdering bastards (I'm not blaming the US for that). Why can't France do it?

quote: We helped them in two world wars. The last one to get rid of a murdering dictator like Hitler. Brave Americans are planted in French soil by the thousand.

I think we owed them BOTH WW1 and WW2 for their help in our Revolution. Without them, we would be like Canada... do you really want that?

quote: At present there is no good reason (Like saving western europe) to support a dictator.

*cough* Musharraf *cough* Saudi Royal Family



There are plenty of good reasons for supporting dictators, Lancer. You have to look at the economic and political rationals underlying.

	16-09-2004 22:56									#40
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Imran showing his true conservatism again.

	16-09-2004 22:59									#41
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Of course... true conservatives believe in a realist foreign policy. The foriegn policy of Kissinger and Bismarck. Just because the most recent brand of faux conservatives like neo-conservatism, doesn't make that the new conservative policy.

(though, on a personal note, I am indeed a 'soft' neo-conservative myself, though I drift from that to realism from time to time)

	16-09-2004 23:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: French and German rational for not going into Iraq was not humanitarian but financial. They would lose investments and debt payments. Their leadership rode the wave of public protestations against the USA. Strictly a powerplay. So? Everyone does this. Hell, WE do that! Our rational in a lot of endevors was financial. Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, etc, etc. We wanted people who we liked in power so we could make some money, even if they were murdering bastards (I'm not blaming the US for that). Why can't France do it?

Well, I would say there is a continuum here. Can you really compare France's complicity in Iraq to Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, etc? I doubt we would have tried to prevent France from making a pre-emptive strike on either of these if it served their long term safety.

	16-09-2004 23:04									#43
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"I think we owed them BOTH WW1 and WW2 for their help in our Revolution. Without them, we would be like Canada... do you really want that?"

Hell no, too cold. :Brrr:

	16-09-2004 23:07									#44
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Maybe we should do a body count and then see who owes who?

	16-09-2004 23:07									#45
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quote: Well, I would say there is a continuum here. Can you really compare France's complicity in Iraq to Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, etc? I doubt we would have tried to prevent France from making a pre-emptive strike on either of these if it served their long term safety.

That's a strong argument... wasn't Argentina's dictators a US puppet? Still they allowed Britian to attack them...

	16-09-2004 23:10									#46
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Actually, Argentina made the first move, if you refer to the Falklands. So the question for the US was: support a first class ally (esp. during cold war times, when Europe was of key importance), or a third class junta.

	16-09-2004 23:12									#47
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quote: So the question for the US was: support a first class ally (esp. during cold war times, when Europe was of key importance), or a third class junta.

This was the question for France, as well....

I don't really criticize France's move, but that's a damn strong argument...

	16-09-2004 23:22									#48
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Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

	16-09-2004 23:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

Right, well I would expect such a reaction from my 6 y/o but not a bunch of adults who should realize such feelings, albeit normal, are no basis for opposition.

	16-09-2004 23:34									#50
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quote: Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

Well, I never felt it. It was more like

-Yo Jacque, what's up let's go to the beach!
-George, wtf is wrong with you? Are you kidding, it's evening!
-Well, why not, there is this kickass live performance by this DJ...We'll dance our brains out, plus there is going to be a lot of *****...
-Nah, I don't want to. I don't even like electronic music.
-Yeah, right, how about that night when you got really drunk, and danced, so clumsily you tripped and fell on this chick, and she slapped you...
- Hey, wtf? I said I don't want to, and that's it. Tosser.
-Well, whatever, man, I am calling Gerhard.
- Dude, don't you get it? Noone likes those stupid parties. And frankly, we're all rather tired of you telling us what to do, and how and where to hang out.
- What? I am just doing it because you nerds never even want to leave the house, watching anime, and that freaky japanese ****. Ya'll just jealous that I am getting FAR more p***y that you'll ever get in your lifetimes. See you suckers. I am going to hang out with my REAL friends. *open cellphone* Yo, Tony, what the **** is up?

	16-09-2004 23:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Right, well I would expect such a reaction from my 6 y/o but not a bunch of adults who should realize such feelings, albeit normal, are no basis for opposition.

Why? Those feelings are only so strong because they show how problematic the entire issue is seen in France and Germany. They point to the root of the problem: is it our duty to support the US, even if we don't agree with a certain element of its policy? This is a fundamental problem, the emotions are only the consequence, not the cause of it.

Therefore the answer in Germany and France was no - the strong feelings related to this only made it more difficult to come back to a somehow normal dialogue with the US, which showed btw similar feelings towards those who did not support the idea to go to war. Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

	16-09-2004 23:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The truth is that France had secret business deals with Saddam. They opposed the war because they did not want to lose the business partner.

and i thought it were only liberal pinko's who needed aluminum ton foil hats...

care to show where you got that information ?

and can i please get into the fact that this admin is heavily supported by the oil industry in the US and that coincidence oh coincidence iraq sits on top of the world's second largest oil reserves ?

	17-09-2004 00:14									#53
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I like your style Azazel, but it's more like this:

Bush: We got the snot beat out of us by these Terrorists guys. It was worse than a one armed man in a cherry pickin' contest.

Chirac: We feel pity for you and your country... Oh, and those people who died too.

Bush: Well, we kicked some major tail in Afganawhatsit, and now we have evidence that Iraq is supporting them.

Chirac: Blame your daddy.

Bush: Yeah, hohoho, well, I am gonna take care of that now.

Chirac: You cannot, we have to much money invested in that country.

Bush: But the terrorists, and the bad guys, and the... Heck, man, we need an enemy right now because Osama gave us the slip.

Chirac: Shrodinger is on my side, he is my puppet.

Bush: So Austria is out too?!

Chirac: That's Germany.

Bush: Well Blair said he has supporting evidence too.

Chirac: We hate the British.

Bush: Who doesn't? The point is Saddam is supporting terrorists and is making weapons of mass destruction.

Chirac: Lets talk to him.

Bush: Resolution 1441 says we don't have to.

Chirac: That is a stupid document.

Bush: You wrote it!

Chirac: No we didn't.

Bush: Yes you did.

Chirac: No we didn't.

Bush: I'm telling on you.

	17-09-2004 00:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Why? Those feelings are only so strong because they show how problematic the entire issue is seen in France and Germany. They point to the root of the problem: is it our duty to support the US, even if we don't agree with a certain element of its policy? This is a fundamental problem, the emotions are only the consequence, not the cause of it. Therefore the answer in Germany and France was no - the strong feelings related to this only made it more difficult to come back to a somehow normal dialogue with the US, which showed btw similar feelings towards those who did not support the idea to go to war. Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

Support was not the issue and you know it. France and Germany OPPOSED US policy in Iraq.

	17-09-2004 00:27									#55
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OMG NO !!!!!

	17-09-2004 00:27									#56
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Stefu, I have no clue why you say the opposition of France and Germany had anything to do with WMDs. Both those countries believed Saddam had them.

	17-09-2004 00:29									#57
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Good one, Japher!

The reason conservatives are so pissed off at our friends is simply the usual conservative political correctness. It is never, under any circumstances, possible that a conservative American President would do or say anything wrong. Ergo, refusing Shrub's demands must have been a vile thing to do.

The fact that the entire WMD rationale for the war has now been dismissed, proving our friends right, has no effect on the PC mindset.

	17-09-2004 00:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Good one, Japher! The reason conservatives are so pissed off at our friends is simply the usual conservative political correctness. It is never, under any circumstances, possible that a conservative American President would do or say anything wrong. Ergo, refusing Shrub's demands must have been a vile thing to do. The fact that the entire WMD rationale for the war has now been dismissed, proving our friends right, has no effect on the PC mindset.

Revisionist.

	17-09-2004 00:36									#59
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Ned, you're just too sharp.

	17-09-2004 00:40									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

But, it wasn't the basis for a profound decision.

Now, the fact that I drink Spanish wine, and have an iron 2' (ft) replica of the Eiffel Tower in my house (and 2 pictures) along with a picture of the Arc de Triomphe must say something.

I wish Spock was here.