17-09-2004 00:41									#61
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The Real Question: Does anyone really need a reason to be mad at the French?

	17-09-2004 00:41									#62
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historical revision is a grand old tradition played up by both sides of the fence.

i especially like how wmd was the primary rationale at first, and when that proved inconvenient, they played up the other rationale, that of liberating iraq, which got almost no airtime before the run up to war.

	17-09-2004 00:57									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Revisionist.

	17-09-2004 01:13									#64
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It's when people change history to suit their needs. Kind of like ppl who make the US Civil War about freeing the slaves or US involvement in WWII about saving Frances butt.

	17-09-2004 04:14									#65
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quote: Can you really compare France's complicity in Iraq to Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, etc? I doubt we would have tried to prevent France from making a pre-emptive strike on either of these if it served their long term safety.

I guess the comparison is a bit strained, since France just did business with Iraq, we were instrumental in installing and keeping into power of Pinochet and the Shah.

And actually we may have protested if France went in to overthrow Pinochet. The Falklands is not a good example, because the junta in Argentina was never really our boys, but we didn't explicitly take any sides during the war (which pissed off Thatcher, btw).

quote: i especially like how wmd was the primary rationale at first, and when that proved inconvenient, they played up the other rationale, that of liberating iraq, which got almost no airtime before the run up to war.

Shhh... the Great Leader would never have done that .

	17-09-2004 05:24									#66
	Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Our obvious superiority.

Jealousy is a bad thing, you know?

	17-09-2004 05:34									#67
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quote: France and Germany's refusal had nothing do do with WMD or terrorism one way or the other. They were beling loyal to their drug dealer.

Wow, nicely put. However , a drug dealer who has slaughtered a bunch of people. And we're over there for the same drug so it's not like we'd care if one drug dealer invaded the turf of another dealer half way around the world if the drug wasn't of value to us.

oil=drug for those not paying close attention.
---------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I never blasted "old Europe" because I figured they just didn't want to invite terrorism as we have filling in for colonial Europe around the world. France wouldn't let our planes use it's airspace to bomb Libya back under Reagan probably for the same reason.

As for "What gives?"

After saving or trying to save "old Europe" from itself in 2 bloody wars and it's colonial holdings, call it returning a favor. There are still plenty of people alive who were in that last war y'all got yourselves in.

	17-09-2004 05:37									#68
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quote: Originally posted by pchang What is best for France and Germany have started to really diverge from what is best for the US.

Like the war in Iraq?

You have a strange conception of what is "best for the US".

	17-09-2004 05:39									#69
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Lesser of two evils is realpolitik.

Lesser of two evils is obvious common sense. What else are you going to pick, the greater?

	17-09-2004 06:39									#70
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seriously though people, america has no reason to be "mad" at germany or france because of this. nations disagree and yet the world still turns.

	17-09-2004 06:43									#71
	Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Inflate your Upload Space

http://www.washingtontimes.com/nati...23000-1796r.htm

	17-09-2004 06:47									#72
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and this is news because? plato obviously everyone in the 1st world is arming everyone in the 3rd world.

	17-09-2004 07:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 and this is news because? plato obviously everyone in the 1st world is arming everyone in the 3rd world.

Not through a UN embargo that they voted for.

	17-09-2004 07:09									#74
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oh boohoo, if the americans had thought of it first, they would have done it.

	17-09-2004 07:13									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 oh boohoo, if the americans had thought of it first, they would have done it.

Probably...but only if Gore had won.

	17-09-2004 07:31									#76
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quote: oh boohoo, if the americans had thought of it first, they would have done it.

We have thought of it...remember Reagan arming the Contras in violation of the UN and calling those terrorists "freedom fighters"? He even compared them to the Founding Fathers?

	17-09-2004 07:50									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Support was not the issue and you know it. France and Germany OPPOSED US policy in Iraq.

And?

	17-09-2004 08:06									#78
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Amcons has already been done. It's too much of an imitation.

Try something else.

	17-09-2004 09:32									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And actually we may have protested if France went in to overthrow Pinochet. The Falklands is not a good example, because the junta in Argentina was never really our boys, but we didn't explicitly take any sides during the war (which pissed off Thatcher, btw).

You can support that, yes?

IIRC, the USN shifted forces to take up slack for RN assets that were going to the Falklands.

Britain had the tacit approval of the US (and everyone else) even though they told us publically our help was not needed.

	17-09-2004 09:34									#80
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro And?

And there's a difference between sitting it out and being opposed.

Do you need a map?

	17-09-2004 09:40									#81
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Yes, there's a difference. Who said otherwise?

	17-09-2004 09:50									#82
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Be a sport and put up some fight, will you?

	17-09-2004 09:52									#83
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You mean we should debate whether countries which do not support a US position are a) allowed to say that openly and b) act according to what they think is a better solution (if it really is or not is another question)?

	17-09-2004 09:59									#84
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Well, I think, like most relationships that have gone sour, the problem is communication. Neither sides is, or was, willing to really listen to eachother. Both sides hads conflicting interests, which were not the most noble of the sort. However, rather than just get together and say, "Hey George, we've been making a killing off these embargos, if you attack Iraq, you'll blow the whole deal." and "Look, the economy here is going down faster than my daughters at a frat party, I need something to distract people and squeeze a few dollars of my own out of, plus Iraq is an itch that I've been dying to scratch.", they both tried to posture and blow smoke to cover the truth. They should have just got together and found a way to screw Iraq so that both Europe and the US would benefit.

That's what allies do.

	17-09-2004 10:12									#85
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quote: I doubt we would have tried to prevent France from making a pre-emptive strike on either of these if it served their long term safety.

Suez, 1956?

quote: Stefu, I have no clue why you say the opposition of France and Germany had anything to do with WMDs. Both those countries believed Saddam had them.

The issue, if you remember, was "Let's continue the inspections to be sure about the nukes" vs. "NO! WE KNOW THERE ARE NUKES! COLIN POWELL HAS SHODDY DOCUMENTS! INVASION NOW!"

quote: Amcons has already been done. It's too much of an imitation.

Call it a homage.

	17-09-2004 10:14									#86
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fair enough

	17-09-2004 10:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You mean we should debate whether countries which do not support a US position are a) allowed to say that openly and b) act according to what they think is a better solution (if it really is or not is another question)?

We might debate what 'allies' should do when they disagree with each other.

The Yanks wanted into Iraq. The French and Germans didn't like that idea. Who was right? The Yanks should have backed off out of respect for French and German wishes, or France and Germany should have just said no and sat it out without creating the big fuss that they did.

All that is clear is that France and the US should in no way be considered allies. Their natures are set to collide, not to coexist. I can see how the EU wants to be independent. That's good. But you have to keep in mind there is a long history of French pissyness in the name of indepedence. If that's what the EU wants to follow, so be it.

	17-09-2004 10:19									#88
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I declare this a copy cat thread.

	17-09-2004 10:23									#89
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There cannot be enough threads about those evil French and Germans

	17-09-2004 10:25									#90
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Next up we need a dis thread on Jerry Lewis and Falco (okay he's Austrian but that's close enough).

Actually I like his song, "Jenny"

JEEENNNYYYYY!!!!!! COME ON HOME GIRLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!