16-09-2004 19:12									#1
	So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Increase Your PM Length

If I remember correctly, 2002 went something like this. Bush wants to invade Iraq. He wants to gather a 'Coalition of the Willing'. In search for his Coalition, Bush administration speaks about the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and Iraq's ties to international terrorism.

France and Germany, being European powers of some importance and parts of the Gulf War coalition, seem like prime candidates for the new coalition, but horror of horrors, they refuse to participate. Furthermore, they oppose the Iraq invasion in the United Nations, even though Colin Powell shows shoddy charts about Iraqi nuclear facilities. Gasp and shudder! Independent nations want to conduct independent foreign policy!

American conservatives ('Amcons') castigate and ridicule France and Germany, particularly France, as 'weasels', 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys', 'collaborationists' and such and predict that boy will France and Germany be ashamed when U.S. forces find mass quantities of primo nuke material just waiting to be assembled. Bush admin joins in with freedom fries, 'Old Europe,' and other similar anti-European rhetoric.

Come the 2003. U.S. invades Iraq and, predictably, kicks Saddam's ass. The primo nuke material fails to materialize. And U.S. had Colin Powell's shoddy charts, too! Bush admin pretty much admits that they were wrong about them nukes and blame the spooks.

Now, this would seem like the perfect opportunity for Amcons to say that hey, maybe France and Germany really had their reasons for not going along - but no. It's still cheese-eating surrender collaborationists this and Kerry the French-looking candidate that.

What gives?

	16-09-2004 19:15									#2
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America never apoligizes to France. That's what it is there for: to insult and snub.

	16-09-2004 19:17									#3
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Oh, I don't know, maybe because they undermined their own UN resolution by smuggling oil our of Iraq?

Betraying their own service memebers btw, there are a good number of French shiips enforcing the embargo in the gulf.

France and Germany's refusal had nothing do do with WMD or terrorism one way or the other. They were beling loyal to their drug dealer.

	16-09-2004 19:24									#4
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Uh, the "surrender" and "collaborationist" remarks in re: to France have been ongoing since 1941.

In short: Blame Hitler.

	16-09-2004 19:26									#5
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France in paticular violated the embargo against Iraq.

	16-09-2004 19:26									#6
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JohnT, we agree completely. We should blame Bush.

	16-09-2004 19:27									#7
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I thought it was "amcaps"?

	16-09-2004 19:27									#8
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Good question Stefu- don't expect a coherent answer.

	16-09-2004 19:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident France in paticular violated the embargo against Iraq.

And that has what to do with Stefu's question?

	16-09-2004 19:28									#10
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Their great crime was putting short term political gains ahead of the long term interest of their people.





Oh wait, everyone does that.

	16-09-2004 19:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And that has what to do with Stefu's question?

that's why I don't like France (goverment)

	16-09-2004 19:29									#12
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Flaunting UN resolutions? Coddling dictators for economical gain? Holy crap! I thought all countries conducted their foreign policy with nothing but utmost morality and respect for international organizations!

I find that not quite enough a reason to still keep up with the LOLOLOLOLOL FRENCH SURRENDER theme.

	16-09-2004 19:31									#13
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Let's not forget that many Germans had pointy helmets decades ago!

	16-09-2004 19:33									#14
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What is best for France and Germany have started to really diverge from what is best for the US. As long as our interests continue to diverge, the US will continue to disparage France and Germany (and vice versa).

	16-09-2004 19:35									#15
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quote: Uh, the "surrender" and "collaborationist" remarks in re: to France have been ongoing since 1941.

Why are we always talking about France surrendering, anyhow?

LOLOLOLOL TENNESSEE SURRENDERS

	16-09-2004 19:41									#16
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There is no good reason for it beyond simply "how dare they disagree, and worse yet, how dare they do so publically. Europe is supposed to be our lapdog." Plus a healthy dose of frankly enjoying picking on the French. Hell, even I thought it was fun and I supported them, hehe.

	16-09-2004 20:04									#17
	Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Stefu What gives?

"Capitalist-roader", "counter-revolutionary", "surrender-monkey", "girly-man" ... discredit inconvenient dissent. It's a tactic as old as politics.

And for many Americans ... it worked.

	16-09-2004 20:05									#18
	Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Now, this would seem like the perfect opportunity for Amcons to say that hey, maybe France and Germany really had their reasons for not going along - but no. It's still cheese-eating surrender collaborationists this and Kerry the French-looking candidate that. What gives?

First, I certainly will never support a candidate who revels in any other culture but my own.

French and German rational for not going into Iraq was not humanitarian but financial. They would lose investments and debt payments. Their leadership rode the wave of public protestations against the USA. Strictly a powerplay.

Taking out Saddam is a set-up maneuver for the war on terrorism. Gives terror-fighting forces a better locale and protects American, and European, interests. WMDs or not. Who gives a damn? Bill Clinton turned down an offer from the Sudanese to hand over bin Ladin years ago, because an issue over jurisprudence. If George W. fudged the facts to make a safer America, then I'm grateful for it.

	16-09-2004 20:05									#19
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you know what upsets me?

The fact that French don't like american culture. They treat our culture as inferior, and I don't like that.

	16-09-2004 20:07									#20
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So you complain that they do the same as Americans do?

Edit: at least a certain part - to be correct

	16-09-2004 20:16									#21
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Oil for food program...need I say more?

	16-09-2004 20:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro So you complain that they do the same as Americans do? Edit: at least a certain part - to be correct

while you would think that. Because it is true we want our culture to be dominant. But our culture is actually combinations of many cultures. And I think most americans appreciate all the cultural influences in our society. In my city it's that time of year where the greek orthodox church has a greek food festival. It's very popular. It draw very large crowds. I love greek food, and would like to go (but I hate crowds). And it's just not the food I respect of other cultures- I respect everything about them. I respect native american cultures the most though (I am part native american).

	16-09-2004 21:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you know what upsets me? The fact that French don't like american culture. They treat our culture as inferior, and I don't like that.

IIRC France is the only country in Europe where McDonalds is making a profit.

[edit] small correction: not only profitable European country, but the most.

	16-09-2004 21:29									#24
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Some americans still have some sense of reality and can be critical about their leaders(fuhrer, il capo) actions.

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2...r/index_np.html

	16-09-2004 21:33									#25
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quote: First, I certainly will never support a candidate who revels in any other culture but my own.

And surely the French or Germans can't be expected to do so, either.

quote: French and German rational for not going into Iraq was not humanitarian but financial. They would lose investments and debt payments. Their leadership rode the wave of public protestations against the USA. Strictly a powerplay.

I'm not denying that. However, considering that this applies to most every nation on Earth including the good ol' US of A, I don't see what makes French or German actions particularily protestworthy.

quote: Taking out Saddam is a set-up maneuver for the war on terrorism. Gives terror-fighting forces a better locale and protects American, and European, interests. WMDs or not. Who gives a damn? Bill Clinton turned down an offer from the Sudanese to hand over bin Ladin years ago, because an issue over jurisprudence. If George W. fudged the facts to make a safer America, then I'm grateful for it.

Here in Europeland we do give a damn. Considering that America has been less than forthright in supporting the causes of freedom and democracy, during the Cold War and otherwise, having a defense for American actions other than the standard selfless-knights-in-shining-armor one is always reassuring.

The argument of Iraq War being a set-up maneuver would be more believable if Americans were actually doing more about the terror - namely, having a foreign policy towards Saudi Arabia that consists of something more than BOHICA. And they would be at such a fine locale to do so, too!

Incidentally, the thing about Clinton turning down Sudanese offer is largely mythical. The Sudanese offer was to give Binnie to another government, namely Saudi Arabia or Egypt, and Clinton admin did what they could in persuading the countries to accept - but they didn't. Linkywinky.

And finally, your attitude of it being okeydokey for having your government lie as long as they give out the impression of having noble purposes is somewhat frightening. I wonder if you'll still have the same attitude when the Democrats - inevitably - come to power again in your country and - inevitably - start telling their sweet little lies to advance their agenda.

quote: Oil for food program...need I say more?

In which France wasn't a particularily large participant in.

	16-09-2004 22:09									#26
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We helped them in two world wars. The last one to get rid of a murdering dictator like Hitler. Brave Americans are planted in French soil by the thousand. Yet they put their business relationship with another murdering dictator above doing the right thing.

Still, they are helping in Afganistan so they aren't complete jerks.

	16-09-2004 22:10									#27
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Yeah, well, I'm kind of missing the gold old days when I was called a appeaser - you missed that one Stefu - as soon as I expressed a view that didn't involve killing towel heads right and left. *sigh* Those where the days...

	16-09-2004 22:17									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu I wonder if you'll still have the same attitude when the Democrats - inevitably - come to power again in your country and - inevitably - start telling their sweet little lies to advance their agenda.

Truman dropped the bomb. As long as that party in power wields the sword of retribution, I'm all for it.

Can't get to your link. But, I'm curious to discover the source and read the spin.

	16-09-2004 22:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer We helped them in two world wars. The last one to get rid of a murdering dictator like Hitler. Brave Americans are planted in French soil by the thousand. Yet they put their business relationship with another murdering dictator above doing the right thing. Still, they are helping in Afganistan so they aren't complete jerks.

Why is that a problem, you have been supporting dictators all around the world for ages yourselves! That's not a valid argument

	16-09-2004 22:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu And surely the French or Germans can't be expected to do so, either.

Totally agree.

quote: Originally posted by Stefu In which France wasn't a particularily large participant in.