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Will the US withdraw from Iraq prematurely? (Time out:0 days after 19-09-2004, 04:31)
Yes
No
They will have to as Bush will want to invade a Banana Republic.
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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why do you feel the need to consistently prove my point?


And what point is that?

You don't really have a point. As usual you stand around sniping because you have nothing substantial to offer, and then you wonder why your opinions are treated with contempt.

You may not like mine, but at least I'll endeavour to defend them. You guys just sit around like hillbilly grandpas griping about their piles.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:08 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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Yo DD, the Italians are pulling out!

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:13
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It's true. Where are my gloating shorts?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:16
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Interesting developments. Bush has supposedly offered to remove Hezbollah from the list of terrorist organizations if they promise to forever give up terrorism and violence to achieve political goals (a la the IRA). CNN is reporting this now and there is no word as to Hezbollah's response.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Interesting developments. Bush has supposedly offered to remove Hezbollah from the list of terrorist organizations if they promise to forever give up terrorism and violence to achieve political goals (a la the IRA). CNN is reporting this now and there is no word as to Hezbollah's response.


Umm, the IRA have decommissioned weapons and given up violence and terrorism?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:36
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Hezbollah are much more like an ex-resistance army that is now a political movement. They are basically dedicated to getting Israel the **** out of where it doesn't belong - a laudable goal, only opposed by racial bigots.

Hezbollah provide education, welfare, etc. They are very popular and do a lot of good.

It seems absurd to compare them to Al Qaeda.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 04:00
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Techumseh's Asia Times also has a very interesting report about the Parallels between Naziism-facism and Islamic fundimentalism. Substitute racial purity with religious purity and you've got Islamic National socialism.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others...-terrorism.html

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 04:02
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Is that why Hezbollah continues to send suicide bombers into Israel and the west bank? Israel pulled out of Lebanon something like a decade ago so it's a little late for national liberation is it?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Most of all they hate Syria... no wait.. this is a pro-Syrian march.. I wonder what the "foreign interference" could be...



While there are only about 4 million Lebanese, there are also about 1.5 million Syrians in Lebanon.

Guess who attended which rally?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 04:43
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quote:
Syrian ethnic cleansing in occupied Lebanon

from People for Free Lebanon - 28.12.2003 01:51

What do Lebanese want from Syria?
Full pull out for their troops and intelligence members from Lebanon per UN resolution 520, setting free all Lebanese detainees in Syrian prisons and an exchange of formal diplomatic relations.

Lebanon under Syria Baath Occupation

In one of the most terrifying scenes of the modern history: the Syrian regime has been working on changing the ethnic and religious demography of Lebanon by replacing its people. Since 1990, Syrian occupation of Lebanon has forced more than 35% of the Lebanese to leave their country. Meanwhile the Syrian-appointed government in Lebanon naturalized around half a million Syrians and Palestinians that is equal to 20% of the Lebanon population.

Syrian troops in Lebanon protect around 1.5 million Syrian illegal workers (that is about half the population of Lebanon), which forces Lebanese to abandon their country. This mass displacement project is accompanied with regular persecution, arresting, kidnapping, torturing and assassinating of the Lebanese


http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2003/12/855.shtml

Yeah, it's a slanted site. Is it lying?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 04:46
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quote:
Syrian Workers in Lebanon: The Other Occupation
by Gary C. Gambill

For the impoverished majority in Lebanon, the Syrian occupation is more than just an affront to national sovereignty, a barrier to free expression and an assault on personal liberties. To the university students who demonstrate regularly against the occupation on campuses throughout the country, it is all these things, but little more. Most of them will eventually escape the atmosphere of repression that has violated their sense of justice by emigrating abroad and joining their prosperous compatriots in the ever-growing Lebanese diaspora.

For the poor and downtrodden who have no escape from this land of lost opportunity, however, the Syrian occupation has a much more pernicious face. Their nemeses are not the Syrian soldiers who man checkpoints throughout the country, nor the plainclothes intelligence officers who monitor every public political gathering, but the 1.4 million penniless Syrian workers who have flooded into Lebanon in recent years and swept away the promise of a brighter future by virtually monopolizing many unskilled professions.

The Syrian Labor Force in Lebanon

The rapid influx of Syrian workers into Lebanon began shortly after Syria's October 1990 takeover of Beirut, which completed its military conquest of the country. Syrian workers had been a significant part of Lebanon's expatriot workforce prior to the outbreak of the civil war in 1975, but their presence had been strictly subject to Lebanese laws. In 1991, Lebanon's newly-installed puppet regime announced the official removal of most travel restrictions between the two countries. As Lebanon's post-war reconstruction boom gained steam in the early 1990's, a variety of subsequent agreements were implemented which made it possible for Syrians to cross over the border virtually undetected. By 1994, Syrian workers were a nearly ubiquitous presence in the streets of Beirut.

The most reliable estimate of the number of Syrian workers in Lebanon was calculated by Michel Murkos in two articles published by the influential Lebanese newspaper, Al-Nahar, in October 1994 and July 1995. Citing statistics obtained from Lebanon's General Security Directorate, Murkos indicated that between 1993-1995, the number of Syrians entering the country exceeded the number who departed Lebanon by 1,435,991.1 Economist Marwan Iskander, a former adviser to Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri who has produced annual reports on the Lebanese economy for the past 18 years, has estimated that the number of Syrian workers in Lebanon remains about 1.4 million. Since these figures do not take into account undocumented migration into the country, they are considered to be conservative estimates. In addition, the estimated 35,000 Syrian soldiers stationed in Lebanon often have jobs to supplement their meager pay.

According to Lebanese economic experts, the Syrian labor force is roughly distributed as follows: construction (39%), seasonal agriculture (33%), municipal and sanitation jobs (20%), services, including street venders and taxi drivers (8%) and industry (2%).

The Impact on Lebanon

The influx of Syrian workers into Lebanon has tended to benefit commercial elites who own businesses that require unskilled labor. Since Syria's per capita GNP is less than a third of Lebanon's,2 Syrian laborers have been readily willing to work for wages that are extremely low by Lebanese standards. A Syrian taxi driver in Beirut, for example, can earn up to $200 per month--around twice the salary of a university professor in Damascus. Lebanese employers prefer to hire unskilled Syrian workers over their Lebanese counterparts because the transaction is off the books, allowing them to avoid paying the required minimum wage, evade the social security system and demand long working hours.

While this small strata of elites has profited immensely from the virtually unlimited supply of abnormally cheap labor, working class Lebanese have suffered tremendously from the entry of Syrian workers. Over the last several years, the unemployment rate has hovered around 30% for the Lebanese labor force as a whole, and is probably higher for unskilled workers, who cannot compete with their Syrian counterparts. Those who manage to get jobs are often forced to accept low wages and dismal working conditions, as well as forgo health insurance and other benefits they once enjoyed.

According to the results of a study released last month by the Development Studies and Projects Center, Lebanon's labor force is expected to grow by an average of 2.3% in the next decade, compared to an average of 1.5% worldwide.3 Lebanon's dismal economy will have difficulty absorbing this growth.

In addition, the presence of Syrian workers hurts the overall economy because very little of the money they earn remains in Lebanon. Unlike Lebanese workers, Syrian laborers are not required to pay taxes. Unlike other foreign workers, Syrians do not have to pay for work permits. According to Lebanese economist Bassam Hashem, the Syrian labor force deprives the Lebanese treasury of hundreds of millions of dollars per year in permit fees and taxes.4

Moreover, Syrian workers live in squalid conditions, often sharing a single room with several of their compatriots, so as to save the bulk of their income and send it to their families in Syria. Syrian workers remit around $4.3 billion from Lebanon to Syria every year. The Assad regime has worked carefully to discourage Syrian workers from spending their wages in Lebanon. It is illegal, for example, for workers to send Lebanese-made consumer durables back to their families in Syria.

Perhaps the most detrimental impact of the Syrian worker presence is demographic. One Lebanese scholar has called the influx of Syrian workers into Lebanon "nothing short of a movement toward Syrian colonization of Lebanon."5 Syrian nationals constitute at least one-third of Lebanon's resident population. Since most Syrian workers are between the ages of eighteen and fifty, there are probably more able-bodied adults Syrians in Lebanon than there are Lebanese. In 1994, under pressure from Syria, the Lebanese regime granted citizenship to over 200,000 Syrians resident in the country. Many of these newly-naturalized citizens were registered in the electoral districts of pro-Syrian political elites, such as former Interior Minister Michel Murr, in order to consolidate Syrian authority over the Lebanese political system.


http://www.meib.org/articles/0102_l1.htm

There's more in the link. That's from 2001, what is the situation now?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 06:04
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Strange things are happening here at Apolyton. Fez has mellowed some but Aggie has stepped up in an attempt to capture Fez's old title of the wackiest & most bizarrely partisan poster.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:18
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quote:
Strange things are happening here at Apolyton. Fez has mellowed some but Aggie has stepped up in an attempt to capture Fez's old title of the wackiest & most bizarrely partisan poster.


I like being partisan. It means I can't ever fall for right wing BS. Which is good policy really, since 100% of what they say is BS.

When it comes out that you were all duped by GOP spin...yet again, just the way you were in the case of Iraq (which some of you still have the gall to ignore) I'll be dancing in my jeweled gloating shorts again.

Sava is offline Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:23
  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:20
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quote:
Fez has mellowed some
yeah right, go read the gun control thread...

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:22
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Don't you love how he calls anything that disagrees with his worldview "GOP spin"?

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Don't you love how he calls anything that disagrees with his worldview "GOP spin"?
well I'd say Agathon is right more often than he's wrong...

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:30 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
well I'd say Agathon is right more often than he's wrong...


Nah... he's wrong countless times (especially when we go back to that Ward Churchill thread).

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:32
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quote:
Don't you love how he calls anything that disagrees with his worldview "GOP spin"?


Are you claiming that Bush didn't make you all his *****es before the war. I can go back and find all the pre war threads that will embarass the hell out of you all if you like.

His latest campaign of "look how I'm taking responsibility for unconnected events in the Middle East to justify my failed policy and deflect attention from the facts" seems to have got you all too.

You're all saps, and you're falling for it again. How blatant do the repugs have to be before you guys will realized you're being punk'd?

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo


Nah... he's wrong countless times (especially when we go back to that Ward Churchill thread).
yeah that thread is not one of Aggy's shining moments.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
You're all saps, and you're falling for it again. How blatant do the repugs have to be before you guys will realized you're being punk'd?
I think too many Americans are too proud to admit they were duped.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:38
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quote:
yeah that thread is not one of Aggy's shining moments.


I'm not giving anything up in that debate. Not one person has actually addressed my argument in that thread, besides me having given it several times over.

quote:
I think too many Americans are too proud to admit they were duped.


No. Half of them still believe Saddam had WMDs and was in league with Osama.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:49 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
yeah that thread is not one of Aggy's shining moments.


And one of those rare times I actually managed to divide the left wing on this forum.. That's a personal victory.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 07:54
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Um Sava is not a lefty. He's a rethug hater.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Um Sava is not a lefty. He's a rethug hater.

Whoha is offline Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
There's more in the link. That's from 2001, what is the situation now?


just damn. 4.3 billion in remittances.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:23
  Old Post 16-03-2005 09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


And what point is that?
That you consider anything that contradicts your world view is irrelevent and immaterial to you and therefore is unworthy of your consideration. That point has been proven in numerous threads.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 18-03-2005 09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
Don't you love how he calls anything that disagrees with his worldview "GOP spin"?


Are you claiming that Bush didn't make you all his *****es before the war. I can go back and find all the pre war threads that will embarass the hell out of you all if you like.

His latest campaign of "look how I'm taking responsibility for unconnected events in the Middle East to justify my failed policy and deflect attention from the facts" seems to have got you all too.

You're all saps, and you're falling for it again. How blatant do the repugs have to be before you guys will realized you're being punk'd?


Oerdin hates Bush & Co., hadn't you noticed?

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 18-03-2005 21:25
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quote:
That you consider anything that contradicts your world view is irrelevent and immaterial to you and therefore is unworthy of your consideration. That point has been proven in numerous threads.


Actually that's not the point at all. It's more like you, Ogie and the other right wing fanatics never argue your points.

You just snipe and post irrelevancies. And you thought no-one had noticed?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 18-03-2005 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Actually that's not the point at all.
I think I would know what my point is. Which incidentally isn't based on how you respond to me.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 18-03-2005 23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
That you consider anything that contradicts your world view is irrelevent and immaterial to you and therefore is unworthy of your consideration. That point has been proven in numerous threads.


Actually that's not the point at all. It's more like you, Ogie and the other right wing fanatics never argue your points.

You just snipe and post irrelevancies. And you thought no-one had noticed?


How did I get dragged into this?

Bye the bye the evidence is overwhelming as DD suggests.

In Aggie speak irrelevancy means - "A point that I can't refute."

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 18-03-2005 at 23:34

 
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