22-09-2004 01:47									#181
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quote: You've seen pictures, heard news from, and spoken to many, many people who've actually seen it themselves.

So what about God?

I've seen icons, I've spent a fair amount of time with those who seem to have some relationship with him, and I can say personally that I have had my prayers answered.

So for me, I am much more sure of God than I am of this fabled city of New York.

	22-09-2004 02:08									#182
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New York is a myth... There is no Big Apple...

I have a relationship with 6'2.5" rabbit named Harvey.

	22-09-2004 02:10									#183
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quote: So for me, I am much more sure of God than I am of this fabled city of New York

What a moronic argument. You can test the existence/nonexistence of New York. Buy a plane ticket, get on the plane, and find out!

Having been there, I assure you it exists, though I'm really not all that fond of it.

-Arrian

	22-09-2004 02:10									#184
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I hate to tell you this

but that is just Venom in a rabbit mask

JM

	22-09-2004 02:11									#185
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I think I can travel through time

	22-09-2004 02:11									#186
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quote: You can test the existence/nonexistence of New York. Buy a plane ticket, get on the plane, and find out!

It's easier for me to pray...

	22-09-2004 02:15									#187
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I can test the existence of god...

	22-09-2004 02:16									#188
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Sure it's easier. It's usually easier to just make **** up

You may think you contact God when you pray. Fine, good for you, but that fails to convince ME that God exists. However, if you were to fly to Connecticut, and I picked you up at the airport and drove you down to NYC, I could show you that it exists.

Different, see? Prolly not, but I'm bored so I'll bash my head against the wall for a while here.

-Arrian

	22-09-2004 02:42									#189
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quote: Fine, good for you, but that fails to convince ME that God exists.

Then what works for you?

How can I prove to you that God exists?

	22-09-2004 02:51									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Ned False premise.

Definition.

	22-09-2004 02:52									#191
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger It doesn't make sense to both have an expanding universe and a universe that has always existed.

The universe isn't expanding. A particular contiguous region of space is.

quote: The universe is not the set of everything that has ever existed, so your argument doesn't apply to the universe's origin.

The universe is defined as such.

	22-09-2004 02:54									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Punctuated equilibrium is much easier to reconcile with some form of evolution directed by God, and not by chance.

Nope. Assuming your God is omnipotent, neither would give him any trouble. Besides which, neither case requires (or even suggests) the existance of some intervening deity.

quote: If God has intervened in nature before through catastrophes, why not also in this manner?

Establish that he has intervened before first.

	22-09-2004 02:55									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So what about God? I've seen icons, I've spent a fair amount of time with those who seem to have some relationship with him, and I can say personally that I have had my prayers answered. So for me, I am much more sure of God than I am of this fabled city of New York.

There are plenty of people who have just as much "evidence" for the existance of, say, Vishnu. Why don't you believe in that?

	22-09-2004 03:33									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So what about God? I've seen icons, I've spent a fair amount of time with those who seem to have some relationship with him, and I can say personally that I have had my prayers answered. So for me, I am much more sure of God than I am of this fabled city of New York.

So you've seen actual pictures of him, you've talked to people that have seen him witht heir own eyes, you've seen TV news from him, you've seen news about him, you've talked to people born next to him?

I see you conveniently missed the second part of my argument. You can read about Atlantis, see symbols of it, etc., but because I haven't seen it, or heard accounts from it, I don't presume it to exist. Likewise with God. Just because you've not seen New York and God, doesn't mean one has to exist because the other does. Plus you have seen New York, on TV. I would have thought someone claiming how useful philosophy was for logic would have seen the analogy as flawed from the start.

If there wasn't a New York, you wouldn't be able to buy a ticket there, without some *huge* scam. It isn't conceivable that it couldn't exist, given the sheer weight of evidence for it. Not only would 9/11 have been a scam, so would the Yankees, The Republican Convention, Will & Grace, etc. It's a silly argument.

	22-09-2004 03:57									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The universe isn't expanding. A particular contiguous region of space is.

quote: The universe is defined as such.

I hope you'll understand if I lend more credence to the definitions given by physicists than I do to the definitions given by a high school student -- their authority trumps yours by several orders of magnitude.

	22-09-2004 04:17									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue If there wasn't a New York, you wouldn't be able to buy a ticket there, without some *huge* scam. It isn't conceivable that it couldn't exist, given the sheer weight of evidence for it. Not only would 9/11 have been a scam, so would the Yankees, The Republican Convention, Will & Grace, etc. It's a silly argument.

No larger a scam, surely, than the one which (presumably) you are hypothesising led to the immense power of the Vatican, the oldest institution in the world; the best selling book of all time (as well as millions of others); a whole bunch of Crusades and goodness knows how many minor wars, schisms and quarrels; healings, revelations and overwhelming amount of art and artifacts over the last two thousand years.

	22-09-2004 04:19									#197
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quote: I hope you'll understand if I lend more credence to the definitions given by physicists than I do to the definitions given by a high school student -- their authority trumps yours by several orders of magnitude.

Fallacy. The term "universe" did not originate with physics. The term "universe" means and has always meant the set of everything that exists.

	22-09-2004 04:19									#198
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I'll answer the original question. No god cannot exist because it contradicts logical argumentation. The notion of god is a figment of human imagination.

	22-09-2004 04:20									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat No larger a scam, surely, than the one which (presumably) you are hypothesising led to the immense power of the Vatican, the oldest institution in the world; the best selling book of all time (as well as millions of others); a whole bunch of Crusades and goodness knows how many minor wars, schisms and quarrels; healings, revelations and overwhelming amount of art and artifacts over the last two thousand years.

Except that there's equal "evidence" of that sort for directly contradictory claims. There is not for the nonexistance of New York.

	22-09-2004 04:33									#200
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what evidence is there for directly contradictory claims?

JM

	22-09-2004 04:34									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Fallacy. The term "universe" did not originate with physics. The term "universe" means and has always meant the set of everything that exists.

I'll cite you on two counts of bullshit -- one for giving a faulty definition, and another for claiming that said definition is absolute.

First, when "universe" is used in a logical context, then entities can and do exist outside of the universe. The universe merely delimits the set of entities within the universe of discourse.

Second, the meanings of words can and do change over time. Or do you wish to argue that computer bugs are organisms? You cannot simply cry "fallacy" and dismiss the scientific definition of "universe" in favor of Kuciwalker's ad hoc definition of "universe."

	22-09-2004 04:34									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: I hope you'll understand if I lend more credence to the definitions given by physicists than I do to the definitions given by a high school student -- their authority trumps yours by several orders of magnitude. Fallacy. The term "universe" did not originate with physics. The term "universe" means and has always meant the set of everything that exists.

if you were intelligent you could recongnise that several deffinitions of universe exist

Jon Miller

	22-09-2004 04:36									#203
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these discussions always come down to discussions of deffinition

Jon Miller

	22-09-2004 05:06									#204
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger It doesn't make sense to both have an expanding universe and a universe that has always existed.

Nevermind kuci's very weird answers to this.

I fail to see why it doesnt make sense.

Something can get smaller and smaller as we go back in time while always existing, or always having as size.
Suppose something doubles in size every year in the future and halves in size every year in the past.
It will always have a size and always grow.
Im not saying thats what happened\ is happening with the universe, I just fail to see how the two contradict each other...

	22-09-2004 06:27									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'll answer the original question. No god cannot exist because it contradicts logical argumentation. The notion of god is a figment of human imagination.

Perhaps.

But the search for understanding of the origins of the universe is, no pun intended, universal among mankind. I think the better road to this understanding is through science, rather than through logic.

	22-09-2004 06:48									#206
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme Suppose something doubles in size every year in the future and halves in size every year in the past. It will always have a size and always grow.

Once the shrinking universe reaches a given mass/energy density then it collapses to a singularity and it doesn't really make sense to think of it as anything else at that point, because the laws that govern our universe don't apply in any meaningful sense (as far as we know) to the singularity. I suppose that we could still think of the singularity as "the universe," but even so we'd still be dealing with two entirely different entities -- the "normal universe," and the "singularity universe" -- when we make any statements concerning either. F'rinstance, we could no longer say "the universe is causal," because for all we know the rules governing a singularity are acausal. That's why it doesn't make sense to have both an eternal and expanding universe -- we'd be making the term "universe" pretty meaningless if we equated a singularity to what we're living in.

	22-09-2004 06:58									#207
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quote: Nope. Assuming your God is omnipotent, neither would give him any trouble.

Not so. Just because he can do something doesn't necessarily mean that he will do something.

If you are willing to concede to me that God can be responsible for these things, then that's all I'm asking.

quote: Establish that he has intervened before first.

What source will you accept? Remember scientists cannot prove such a causal relationship because it is beyond the scope of science.

	22-09-2004 07:00									#208
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quote: There are plenty of people who have just as much "evidence" for the existance of, say, Vishnu. Why don't you believe in that?

Like I said earlier, I believe there is some truth in the Hindu accounts of Vishnu, but that the Christians have had more revealed to them of the character of God.

	22-09-2004 07:11									#209
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quote: So you've seen actual pictures of him, you've talked to people that have seen him witht heir own eyes,

No, I'm claiming to have talked to him myself. I'm claiming a personal relationship, rather than only knowledge garnered through authority.

quote: you've seen TV news from him, you've seen news about him, you've talked to people born next to him?

Well, he doesn't reveal himself in that manner, but I have read about him, and accounts of him, just like I have read accounts about New York.

I can read descriptions of New York, that tell me what it's like, and I can read the same, in theology, that tell me about God.

quote: I see you conveniently missed the second part of my argument. You can read about Atlantis, see symbols of it, etc., but because I haven't seen it, or heard accounts from it, I don't presume it to exist.

I don't ignore that part at all. This is why I claim a personal relationship, rather than just hearing about God from authority.

From my perspective, you really have two choices. You can accept the truth that the vast majority of what you trust is on authority, and to also come to accept God in this manner, or you can choose to only believe in what you see, and what you know by personal experience.

Which will it be, Drogue?

quote: Plus you have seen New York, on TV. I would have thought someone claiming how useful philosophy was for logic would have seen the analogy as flawed from the start.

Yes, but I can feel the Holy Spirit. I can't feel New York. So tell me why one sense should trump another. Why should I trust my eyes more than touch?

quote: If there wasn't a New York, you wouldn't be able to buy a ticket there, without some *huge* scam.

So? You can 'buy' a ticket to God. You just have to wait awhile, since the next flight schedule hasn't been released.

quote: It isn't conceivable that it couldn't exist, given the sheer weight of evidence for it. Not only would 9/11 have been a scam, so would the Yankees, The Republican Convention, Will & Grace, etc. It's a silly argument

Don't you see that I feel the same way about God? You see all this evidence around you that New York exists, and I feel the same way about God.

	22-09-2004 07:29									#210
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There is no way you can talk to god (you are trying so hard to believe in something, and make something talk to yourself... you are hearing voices in your head). The notion of god is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.... I can't believe people choose to believe in god(s), there are so many better things in life then a human imagined being.