21-09-2004 04:15									#31
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kidicious does have a point. but then again, that is the nature of a glass house.

	21-09-2004 04:52									#32
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quote: The aim: to make space for upscale condominiums, a luxury hotel and private offices that would yield the city more tax revenues than can be extracted from the area's middle-class homeowners.

at liberalism

quote: The question is: Does the Constitution empower governments to seize a person's most precious property — a home, a business — and give it to more wealthy interests so that the government can reap, in taxes, ancillary benefits of that wealth?

No, eminent domain was only meant to give Congress the power to buy land for building federal stuff.

	21-09-2004 05:07									#33
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There is great deal of variance among the states about the meaning of "public purpose" within their own constitutions.

	21-09-2004 05:27									#34
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Gepap -

quote: Why wouldn't it? If the state is soverign, some individual private landowner's stubborness does not stop projects for the public (state) benefit being moved forward.

The state is not sovereign or we wouldn't have a Constitution limiting what it can do. We have a system of diffused democracy where federal, state, and local governments share sovereignty with each of us. The only way to make this work is to limit democracy... That limit is exceeded here...

quote: It is a power the government needs, and I think the constitution does allow for it.

Every reference to "public good" within the context of eminent domain powers makes it clear "public" means government structures built on land bought from the rightful owner - structures that serve the public, not various factions within society...

Kid -

quote: How could city govts ever make improvements without eminent domain?

Buy land? Plan ahead? Tell the damn baseball team to build it's own stadium... I can't believe some of you guys think this is okay, it's no surprise eminent domain is being used more and more to transfer property from the less wealthy to the more wealthy...

at liberals

quote: It's the only way to create jobs? Fresno is making a huge industrial park here. Sure a few home owners complain, but with double digit unemployment no one else really cares. Most of the home owners who complain live alone in 4 bedroom houses.

Opinion polls of people who are taking other people's homes don't impress me. Government doesn't create jobs, government is less efficient than the private sector so the more government takes from the private sector the more efficiency declines.

	21-09-2004 05:29									#35
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quote: Originally posted by self biased kidicious does have a point. but then again, that is the nature of a glass house.

Where is he being hypocritical?

	21-09-2004 05:38									#36
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quote: There is great deal of variance among the states about the meaning of "public purpose" within their own constitutions.

If the US Constitution does not apply, then I doubt the Conn Constitution differs given they were both authored
around the same time and probably understood to have the same meaning. But "public" didn't mean one group of citizens taking another group's property for their own enrichment (that's a more modern liberal concept). Back then public meant the governed, that's why the few structures offered up as examples in the Constitution were all government structures to fulfill the duties and powers of Congress...

	21-09-2004 05:43									#37
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This has nothing to do with political ideology and everything to do with political corruption. I'm sure there are closely connected political backers who are real estate developers who stand to make big bucks off this. Same ****, different state.

	21-09-2004 06:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm sure there are closely connected political backers who are real estate developers who stand to make big bucks off this.

YA THINK...



Nothing new here... except they are coming up with more creative ways of screwing people.

	21-09-2004 06:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Connecticutt, NJ and NY are rife with corruption at the state level. Interest groups are so old and entrenched and so much money is floasting around.

This is in part due to the Red State Blue State thing. It's hard for a Democrat to win in the west short of the coast, and it's hard for a Republican to win in the east. This means that most office holders are selected in primaries or worse, caucases. Once in place they are virtually assured of holding on to their positions until they decide to leave. This allows them to get away with a lot more than someone who faces regular competitive elections, and it also creates a culture of corruption.

	21-09-2004 07:21									#40
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quote: Originally posted by self biased doesn't this country have its roots in taking land that isn't theirs? why should it stop there?

IS that aimed at a specific country or any country the world over?

	21-09-2004 07:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Opinion polls of people who are taking other people's homes don't impress me. Government doesn't create jobs, government is less efficient than the private sector so the more government takes from the private sector the more efficiency declines.

Typically a meaningless point to Kid, as he wishes to maximize employment with little regard to efficiency/productivity.

	21-09-2004 08:45									#42
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quote: Most of the home owners who complain live alone in 4 bedroom houses.

Which obviously makes them untermenschen, devoid of all rights. Right?

	21-09-2004 08:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Buy land? Plan ahead? Tell the damn baseball team to build it's own stadium... I can't believe some of you guys think this is okay, it's no surprise eminent domain is being used more and more to transfer property from the less wealthy to the more wealthy...

It's not a transfer at all. It's compensation, and more importantly it makes things better for people. The land owner is compensated fairly and a lot of people are made better off.

quote: Opinion polls of people who are taking other people's homes don't impress me. Government doesn't create jobs, government is less efficient than the private sector so the more government takes from the private sector the more efficiency declines.

People in Fresno have been waiting for a long time for the private sector to create jobs. It's not going to happen without businesses here. There has to be places for businesses here or they can't come.

	21-09-2004 08:50									#44
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quote: The land owner is compensated fairly and a lot of people are made better off.

Except the property owner, who might feel better off keeping his/her property. But then again, when the majority wants to take something, then might pretty much makes right, doesn't it?

	21-09-2004 08:50									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Typically a meaningless point to Kid, as he wishes to maximize employment with little regard to efficiency/productivity.

Employment is more important. Everyone needs a job, just like you need a house, food etc.

	21-09-2004 08:51									#46
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Yes, everyone needs a job. Need doesn't create entitlement, though. I need $10000 to pay off student loans. Doesn't mean anyone owes it to me, though.

	21-09-2004 08:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Except the property owner, who might feel better off keeping his/her property. But then again, when the majority wants to take something, then might pretty much makes right, doesn't it?

No. What makes it right is that the property owner is compensated. Of course they aren't compensated for whatever they want for it. Much like libertarian political theory, that doesn't work.

	21-09-2004 08:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, everyone needs a job. Need doesn't create entitlement, though. I need $10000 to pay off student loans. Doesn't mean anyone owes it to me, though.

If I truely need something, and you don't then I do have a right to it. Saying that makes just as much sense as what you are saying. It's just a biased subjective claim.

	21-09-2004 08:57									#49
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quote: People in Fresno have been waiting for a long time for the private sector to create jobs. It's not going to happen without businesses here. There has to be places for businesses here or they can't come.

What Kid isn't telling y'all is that Fresno County is mostly agricultural, with the largest value of ag goods produced by any county in the nation (over $3 billion worth). And, as anybody with a bit of agriculture experience knows, unemployment, especially seasonal unemployment, is more common in farm-heavy counties than urban (or even non-farm rural) counties.

	21-09-2004 08:58									#50
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quote: No. What makes it right is that the property owner is compensated.

Value is not an absolute figure. What is worth $1 to you may be worth $1000 to me. What's more important, though, is the issue of ownership.

quote: Much like libertarian political theory, that doesn't work.

*cough cough*

Pot, kettle, black.

	21-09-2004 08:59									#51
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JohnT,

I missed your point.

	21-09-2004 09:00									#52
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quote: If I truely need something, and you don't then I do have a right to it.

How do you figure that?

quote: Saying that makes just as much sense as what you are saying. It's just a biased subjective claim.

No, it's based on an objective claim - that is, I'm morally entitled to my body, and by extension, what my body (myself) produces, and by further extension, what I acquire as a result of my production.

	21-09-2004 09:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Value is not an absolute figure. What is worth $1 to you may be worth $1000 to me. What's more important, though, is the issue of ownership.

If value isn't absolute than it isn't objective either. So you aren't helping your claim here.

	21-09-2004 09:00									#54
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Point: long-term job growth doesn't go hand-in-hand with agricultural communities.

	21-09-2004 09:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Point: long-term job growth doesn't go hand-in-hand with agricultural communities.

The joys of the free market.

	21-09-2004 09:03									#56
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quote: If value isn't absolute than it isn't objective either. So you aren't helping your claim here.

The relativity of value is irrelevant to the issue of ownership.

	21-09-2004 09:06									#57
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The relativity of value is irrelevant to the issue of ownership.

How do you own things?

	21-09-2004 09:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The joys of the free market.

Given that agriculture is seasonal, a fact that is, irrespective of any market, this "retort" is just silly. Given that it is also increasingly mechanized, it dives almost into the "uneducated" category.

	21-09-2004 09:08									#59
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quote: How do you own things?

If what you are getting at is "how do you conduct transactions", then obviously, two people agree on value.

	21-09-2004 09:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given that agriculture is seasonal, a fact that is, irrespective of any market, this "retort" is just silly. Given that it is also increasingly mechanized, it dives almost into the "uneducated" category.

It's free market. Not irrespective at all. Maybe you need a nap.