21-09-2004 09:17									#61
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If what you are getting at is "how do you conduct transactions", then obviously, two people agree on value.

So value is relative to ownership.

	21-09-2004 09:20									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Value is relative to whatever the person who owns the item or land in question thinks it's worth.

	21-09-2004 09:20									#63
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

And of course, whatever the prospective buyer wants to pay.

	21-09-2004 09:23									#64
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Value is relative to whatever the person who owns the item or land in question thinks it's worth.

Not in all cases. Case in point.

	21-09-2004 09:24									#65
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What case might that be?

	21-09-2004 10:31									#66
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: This has nothing to do with political ideology and everything to do with political corruption.

Corruption induced by the ideology of liberalism - transfering wealth is the status quo... If almost everyone believes that is the purpose of government, then ya gotta expect government to become a feeding frenzy...

Kid -

quote: It's not a transfer at all.

Yes it is, property is being taken from one group and given to another.

quote: It's compensation, and more importantly it makes things better for people. The land owner is compensated fairly and a lot of people are made better off.

The article said the property was condemned, i.e., property of the state. But your interpretation of this power wasn't fair enough to find it's way into the Constitution which says eminent domain applies only to property needed by the state for structures serving the public, not private developers.

quote: People in Fresno have been waiting for a long time for the private sector to create jobs. It's not going to happen without businesses here. There has to be places for businesses here or they can't come.

And you don't think the state government of California has no negative impact on Fresno's economy? Here's another example of government creating a problem and then using that problem as an excuse to abuse a different power. Same tactic employed in the drug war, ban drugs and use the black market violence as an excuse to expand government control over our lives...

	21-09-2004 11:16									#67
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Corruption induced by the ideology of liberalism - transfering wealth is the status quo... If almost everyone believes that is the purpose of government, then ya gotta expect government to become a feeding frenzy...

Conservatives are just as addicted to stealing people's property. They usually just prey on the poor and defenseless.

	21-09-2004 11:27									#68
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes, and liberals prey on the rich. What's your point? Neither Berzerker nor I can be considered conservative by any means.

	21-09-2004 19:47									#69
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What case might that be?

Eminent domain.

	21-09-2004 19:53									#70
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yes it is, property is being taken from one group and given to another.

You guys are like religious zealots. They are compensated and usually very well.

quote: The article said the property was condemned, i.e., property of the state. But your interpretation of this power wasn't fair enough to find it's way into the Constitution which says eminent domain applies only to property needed by the state for structures serving the public, not private developers.

I never claimed that the Constitution is fair. What the govt did was legal though.

quote: And you don't think the state government of California has no negative impact on Fresno's economy? Here's another example of government creating a problem and then using that problem as an excuse to abuse a different power. Same tactic employed in the drug war, ban drugs and use the black market violence as an excuse to expand government control over our lives...

[/QUOTE]

Concession? I think so.

	21-09-2004 19:55									#71
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, and liberals prey on the rich. What's your point? Neither Berzerker nor I can be considered conservative by any means.

You sure can. You are the most conservative people here. You advocate the worst possible govt for the least fortunate among us.

	21-09-2004 19:59									#72
	Got spare money?

ummm... you realize you gave credence to the whole arguement that abuse of emminent domain is wrong. By agreeing that value is a negotiation of seller's and buyer's perceived value. (Unless you can provide other examples) The one instance you provide where this is not he case was identified by the opening post an indication that the process went horribly wrong. Therefor negation of this process by governmental duress (using governement only's perceived value and ignoring the value perceived by the seller) is inherently wrong akin to theft.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 21-09-2004 at 20:04

	21-09-2004 20:05									#73
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ogie,

I'm not saying abuse of it is wrong. The libertarians are arguing against it all together though.

	21-09-2004 20:10									#74
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The nut to crack is determining what is 'abuse'.

	21-09-2004 20:17									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

Obviously the intent of the framers was to allow the govt to use property for the good of all and to compensate the owner fairly. Compensating owners more than usual amounts is not in the best interest of all. The compensation has to be reasonable.

	21-09-2004 20:23									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It depends on who's getting compensated. The richer you are, the more likely compensation is going to be well above fair market value. The further you decend the economic ladder, the more likely you are to get shafted when the government seizes your property.

	21-09-2004 20:24									#77
	Suffering from ads?

Agreed which is why I am passionate around property rights and emminant domain abuse issues.

	21-09-2004 20:25									#78
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't think anyone gets shafted. We were renting in an area that is going to be turned into industrial zone and they were going to give us 6 months rent for forcing us to move.

	21-09-2004 20:28									#79
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Did they throw in some magic beans for the cow as well?

	21-09-2004 20:29									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think anyone gets shafted. We were renting in an area that is going to be turned into industrial zone and they were going to give us 6 months rent for forcing us to move.

That's probably less to do with you and more to do with the project couldn't be started much before then anyway. The less important you are, the less likely you are to receive a fair value for your property if the government seizes it.

	21-09-2004 20:30									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I guess there are probably cases where the govt has used eminent domain unfairly or in a way that didn't benefit society, but in general we all benefit greatly by the govt being able to use this tool. Even being forced to move is better than living in a society where the govt can't make improvements because someone's property is in the way.

	21-09-2004 20:33									#82
	Put an end to popups!

Well poor people don't usually own property. If they do it's a mobile home.

	21-09-2004 20:34									#83
	Get a bigger avatar today!

So that makes their meager possessions all the more fair game for theft?

	21-09-2004 21:23									#84
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe So that makes their meager possessions all the more fair game for theft?

Oh, I forgot. You are a libertarian. You don't support eminent domain at all do you?

	21-09-2004 21:26									#85
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: The question is: Does the Constitution empower governments to seize a person's most precious property — a home, a business — and give it to more wealthy interests so that the government can reap, in taxes, ancillary benefits of that wealth?

Everytime a Palestinian home is bulldozed, the Israeli's cheer... and yet the US continues to support the practise.

Constitutional law at home, the law of the jungle for all others... that seems the path of the USA.

	21-09-2004 22:10									#86
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh, I forgot. You are a libertarian. You don't support eminent domain at all do you?

Not a libertarian perse but I d o find many of their stances aligned with my views. As a matter of practicality I do understand the need for emminent domain but find it's current interpretation to be far from its orignal intent.

	22-09-2004 01:07									#87
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Not a libertarian perse but I d o find many of their stances aligned with my views. As a matter of practicality I do understand the need for emminent domain but find it's current interpretation to be far from its orignal intent.

If you understand the need for eminent domain then why do you call it theft? Is there a line that you cross or what?

	22-09-2004 01:11									#88
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Lobyist and private interest has skewed the view of what "beneficial for the public" actually is.

	22-09-2004 01:18									#89
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If you understand the need for eminent domain then why do you call it theft? Is there a line that you cross or what?

Obviously hence my question as to what constitutes abuse. IMO, government seized land via emminent domain should only be done for purposes of communal good and needs to remain the property of the people (i.e. governement property such as roads, vias, parks, , etc.). To do otherwise as was teh case in the OP and other posts I have made in similar instance represents theft for the purpose of increasing tax base.

Using the increased tax base as a common good rationale allows for all types of abuse wherein its better to rip off all the poor and put their property in the hands of the wealthy as they are likely to pay higher taxes via our progressive tax sytem. (assuming equal profit generation from the property) Are you sure you want to advocate that?

	22-09-2004 02:59									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Obviously hence my question as to what constitutes abuse. IMO, government seized land via emminent domain should only be done for purposes of communal good and needs to remain the property of the people (i.e. governement property such as roads, vias, parks, , etc.). To do otherwise as was teh case in the OP and other posts I have made in similar instance represents theft for the purpose of increasing tax base. Using the increased tax base as a common good rationale allows for all types of abuse wherein its better to rip off all the poor and put their property in the hands of the wealthy as they are likely to pay higher taxes via our progressive tax sytem. (assuming equal profit generation from the property) Are you sure you want to advocate that?

Ah, so you say you think it rips off the poor. I find that so incredible I can't really respond.