23-09-2004 17:07									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Still it seems reasonable to meet him half way and at least not do the abusive stuff, no matter what your politics are with the possible exception of those who have a personal stake in the development project.

Yes exactly, and since "Abuse" of Emminent Domain was the topic and point of my OP I see little reason to continually rail against Libs like Berz and Floyd who have allowed for its legitamate constitutionally provided use.

Their point and mine is that ED has been transmogrified (for fans of Clavin and Hobbes ) into a vehicle for property transfer to other interests and goes completely against the original intent of ED.

	23-09-2004 18:09									#122
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Still it seems reasonable to meet him half way and at least not do the abusive stuff, no matter what your politics are with the possible exception of those who have a personal stake in the development project.

I don't believe that transfering property to private entities is abuse as long as it is in the interest of the community. The libertarians are saying that that is immoral because it favors business. Hello! This is capitalism. They need to get out of their fantasy world. Capitalism favors business.

	23-09-2004 18:11									#123
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The abuses are the practice, this power is now used more to transfer property to other interests than to government.

Are you talking about corruption or just reselling the property, because it doesn't matter if the govt were to keep the property. There is still a transfer of property. There are always entities that prosper from govt action.

	23-09-2004 18:19									#124
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't believe that transfering property to private entities is abuse as long as it is in the interest of the community. The libertarians are saying that that is immoral because it favors business. Hello! This is capitalism. They need to get out of their fantasy world. Capitalism favors business.

Ring ring, reality phone for you Kid. Libs are strict consitutionalists who take umbrage that the constitution has been hijacked and perverted to allow these patently unfair and nefarious delaings. Whether it benefits community or not, it was not the intent. Any person worth their salt understands the underpinings of a successful capitalistic society relies heavily on respect for rule of law and by extension clearly defined and unabrogated property rights.

What you ascribe as mechanism of capitalism is not but more over is corruption. A corruption you allow for because at certain times it fits your agenda. A corruption I call bullshit on because it is indeed corruption of capitalism and rule of civlized society.

	23-09-2004 18:24									#125
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Are you talking about corruption or just reselling the property, because it doesn't matter if the govt were to keep the property. There is still a transfer of property. There are always entities that prosper from govt action.

I won't speak for them (Berz and Floyd) except to say they have allowed for ED, IF and ONLY IF government retains the property for societal uses (such as roads, parks etc.). The second transfer of property to private interests shows the true corruption of ED as a vehicle for property redistribution.

	23-09-2004 21:38									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Corruption of ED is not the same as corruption in govt. And another thing. You keep saying property redistribution as if some people are getting poorer. Why are you doing that?

	23-09-2004 21:43									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Ring ring, reality phone for you Kid. Libs are strict consitutionalists who take umbrage that the constitution has been hijacked and perverted to allow these patently unfair and nefarious delaings. Whether it benefits community or not, it was not the intent. Any person worth their salt understands the underpinings of a successful capitalistic society relies heavily on respect for rule of law and by extension clearly defined and unabrogated property rights.

Normal people do not support the rule of a law which prevents the community from benefiting. That's not rational. It's not common sense. And only a special interest would support such laws.

quote: What you ascribe as mechanism of capitalism is not but more over is corruption. A corruption you allow for because at certain times it fits your agenda. A corruption I call bullshit on because it is indeed corruption of capitalism and rule of civlized society.

Capitalism is not civil. It is a violent, abusive, exploitive system.

	23-09-2004 22:10									#128
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Corruption of ED is not the same as corruption in govt. And another thing. You keep saying property redistribution as if some people are getting poorer. Why are you doing that?

I would agree ED is not corruption IN government it is a corruption OF government (as defined by such bodies as the Supreme Court of Connecticut).

As for whether people are getting poorer, damn straight. if poor Ms. Jackson could have milked developer for more bucks by sitting pat on first offers only to have the government condemn sieze and then hand over her land to said developer, I'ld say she pretty much got ripped off.

	23-09-2004 22:15									#129
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Normal people do not support the rule of a law which prevents the community from benefiting. That's not rational. It's not common sense. And only a special interest would support such laws.

Ummm ...no. Normal people support the rule of law (intellectually speaking that is) as they realize an abrogation of one persons rights could very well happen next to them. It only when selfishness,greed and envy come into play that they look for the 'what's in it for them' that allows them to say, "Sure rip off little old Ms. Jackson property at least I get an employment opportunity with Pfizer".

	23-09-2004 23:27									#130
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe As for whether people are getting poorer, damn straight. if poor Ms. Jackson could have milked developer for more bucks by sitting pat on first offers only to have the government condemn sieze and then hand over her land to said developer, I'ld say she pretty much got ripped off.

If she would have been able to milk the developer she would only be doing so at the expense of the people who would benefit from the improvement. Preventing her from doing that isn't making her poorer than she would be otherwise if no one were interestd in buying her property in the first place.

	23-09-2004 23:31									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Ummm ...no. Normal people support the rule of law (intellectually speaking that is) as they realize an abrogation of one persons rights could very well happen next to them. It only when selfishness,greed and envy come into play that they look for the 'what's in it for them' that allows them to say, "Sure rip off little old Ms. Jackson property at least I get an employment opportunity with Pfizer".

If people are being made better off, and they are (everyone benefits from ED), then they approve. Again, ED is supported by the voters of the communities. You guys are the minority here, because you are a special interest. You want more compensation for your property at the expense of most people.

	23-09-2004 23:32									#132
	Increase Your PM Length

It takes awhile to figure out what these libs are getting at but I think I'm finally doing so here. They want property owners to get a windfall from selling their property. If they don't get it they claim they are ripped off.

	23-09-2004 23:54									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It takes awhile to figure out what these libs are getting at but I think I'm finally doing so here. They want property owners to get a windfall from selling their property. If they don't get it they claim they are ripped off.

I would even support your right to decide whether or not you wanted to sell your home rather than have it seized (at great personal loss)for purposes of transfer to private interests in the so called name of greater public good.

Just as I would support your right to voice communist propoganda even if the government decided your sedition was better off silenced for the greater public good.

	24-09-2004 00:02									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If people are being made better off, and they are (everyone benefits from ED), then they approve.

Everyone. Ummm....No not poor Ms. Jackson

quote: Again, ED is supported by the voters of the communities.

Really where was such a vote taken? In any event a nonsequitor as that would imply by having all your neighbors vote they could simply seize all your possessions, just becasue it serves the greater good. Good show. Why not simply legalize burglury? For that matter you eat too much. Your life is an infringment on the greater good. Lets just off you, ehhh?

quote: You guys are the minority here, because you are a special interest. You want more compensation for your property at the expense of most people.

Seems to me everyone else in this thread has been pretty much aligned that abuse of ED is a real problem. Who is the minority voice here?

	24-09-2004 00:30									#135
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I would even support your right to decide whether or not you wanted to sell your home rather than have it seized (at great personal loss)for purposes of transfer to private interests in the so called name of greater public good.

That's ok. Don't worry about it. I prefer to have improvements made so that people have jobs, roads etc.

quote: Everyone. Ummm....No not poor Ms. Jackson

Ms. Jackson also enjoys things like roads and jobs.

quote: Really where was such a vote taken?

In Fresno a vote was taken, and overwelmingly approved of. Jobs are good for everyone; workers, business, and govt.

quote: In any event a nonsequitor as that would imply by having all your neighbors vote they could simply seize all your possessions, just becasue it serves the greater good. Good show. Why not simply legalize burglury? For that matter you eat too much. Your life is an infringment on the greater good. Lets just off you, ehhh?

Your going to have to stop being so ridiculous.

The ideal Libertarian society would have plenty of economic improvements made to it and it would be very organized, NOT! There would be a revolution within 1 year.

	24-09-2004 01:33									#136
	Increase Your PM Length

Here's something to help some of you on the fence about Libertarian idealism.

Common sense approach: If it doesn't work fix it.

Libertarian approach: Don't fix it because it's the owner's right to leave it broken.

Libertarianism.

	24-09-2004 01:40									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's ok. Don't worry about it. I prefer to have improvements made so that people have jobs, roads etc.

Leave off the roads argument already that is accounted for in the orginal and legit use of ED. As for jobs, there is no guarantee now is there. All that can be said is that opportunity may or may not be more plentiful. Take as a for instance the numerous Walmart instances of ED abuse. As a consequence it becomes apparent that the claims of increased jobs from their ED conspiracies with local gov actually net less jobs and less tax income. Good show! Too bad tho' as all those poor Ms. Jacksons have been kicked to the curb.

quote: Ms. Jackson also enjoys things like roads and jobs.

She also likes a roof over her head. In the meanwhile while she is anxiously awaiting the build of the new Pfizer plant or Walmart super center (in the vain hope that maybe she can land a job there), she lives in a van down by the river. Maybe she is one of the lucky ones that surivives the winter. Good show #2.

OTOH you've got good ole Mr.& Ms. Brown who are retired and have nothing but their little cottage and SS, shuffle them off to the recycle tanks nothing left for them to contribute to the greater good. Good show #3. Yey greater good.

quote: In Fresno a vote was taken, and overwelmingly approved of. Jobs are good for everyone; workers, business, and govt.

I suppose EVERYONE voted for it as you earlier implied. (Good ole tyranny of the majority)

Tell me did the vote entail a condemnation as was the case in Connecticut so that people got completely shafted or were the evictees simply partially shafted with a paltry sum a fraction of its real worth. Personally a 6 month package to me is laughable.

quote: Your going to have to stop being so ridiculous. The ideal Libertarian society would have plenty of economic improvements made to it and it would be very organized, NOT! There would be a revolution within 1 year.

As opposed to the ideal communist society which has yet to ever exist even for a nanosecond.

	24-09-2004 02:09									#138
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Here's something to help some of you on the fence about Communist idealism.

Common sense approach: If it doesn't work fix it, cause after all it will appreciate its value to you as the owner in the event you ever want to consentually sell it.

Communist approach: Don't fix it because it's better to simply steal the good stuff and shuffle the dissidents off to the salt mines.

Communism

	24-09-2004 03:18									#139
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Leave off the roads argument already that is accounted for in the orginal and legit use of ED. As for jobs, there is no guarantee now is there. All that can be said is that opportunity may or may not be more plentiful.

I was simply requiring the reader to already understand that spending equals jobs, but I forgot that I was talking to libertarians. Sorry.

	24-09-2004 03:42									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Corruption of ED is not the same as corruption in govt.

ED, by definition, can only be performed by the government.

	24-09-2004 03:44									#141
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Normal people do not support the rule of a law which prevents the community from benefiting.

Yes they do. They support obeying the law but pressuring for change. And it is rational and commonsense because if people only obeyed laws they considered correct, all hell would break loose.

	28-09-2004 22:36									#142
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The SCOTUS is taking up a case whether economic development is "public use."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...eizing_property

	28-09-2004 23:10									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks Lefty. Here's hoping they rule appropriately to defend property rights.

	29-09-2004 02:09									#144
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I would like to see them set some type of limit. From the article it doesn't sound likely though.

	29-09-2004 02:20									#145
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I was simply requiring the reader to already understand that spending equals jobs, but I forgot that I was talking to libertarians. Sorry.

hmm an interesting quote considering that you seem to disapprove of any significant accumulation of private capital which could be spent.

	29-09-2004 05:31									#146
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Note that in the above article is a summary of the States' positions on their own constitutions. What will apply, of course, is the more restrictive of the state or federal constituion.

	29-09-2004 21:18									#147
	Increase Your PM Length

Now what would be nice is for a Scalia-Stevens majority, Scalia reference the strict constitutionalist leanings and Stevens standing up for the little guy. Add in Kennedy and Ginsburg plus one other justice and you can get the weirdest majority opinion in recent court decisions. Hey, maybe five different opinions for the majority.

	29-09-2004 21:38									#148
	Put an end to popups!

Combinations like that have happened before. Scalia can sometimes be a free ageny, because his constructionalist ideas can back different sides, depending on the issue.

I just read a case (Conflicts of Law case, I think) where the dissent was Antonin Scalia and Thurgood Marshall.

	29-09-2004 22:12									#149
	Remove this text

I know, that's why I mentioned it. It's not inconceivable in this case. Could you give a link for that case, I would find that interesting to read. My biggest problem with Scalia, is that reference the ix and x amendments, he almost always sides with the state (as in individual states read states rights) versus the individual when they come in conflict. Since he has a choice (the constitution does not put one above the other) as a strict constitutionalist, and he's up there and I'm not, his opinion is the one that counts. That's why I'll tend to favor Stevens or Kennedy types for that reason, and I let my voting reflect that.