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Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 00:54
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More Emminent Domain Abuse Suffering from ads?

This practice absolutely disgusts me.

George Will NYPost OPED

quote:

September 19, 2004 -- THE U.S. Constitution, prop erly construed by a vigilant Supreme Court, prevents untrammeled power, which is the definition of despotism. But the human propensity for abusing power — a propensity the Constitution's framers understood and tried to shackle with prudent language — is perennial. There always are people trying to carve crevices in constitutional terminology to allow scope for despotism. Such carving is occurring in Connecticut.
Soon — perhaps on the first Monday in October — the court will announce whether it will hear an appeal against a 4-3 ruling last March by Connecticut's Supreme Court. That ruling effectively repeals a crucial portion of the Bill of Rights. If you think the term "despotism" exaggerates what this repeal permits, consider the life-shattering power wielded by the government of New London, Conn.

That city, like many cities, needs more revenues. To enhance the Pfizer pharmaceutical company's $270 million research facility, it empowered a private entity, the New London Development Corp., to exercise the power of eminent domain to condemn most of the Fort Trumbull neighborhood along the Thames River. The aim: to make space for upscale condominiums, a luxury hotel and private offices that would yield the city more tax revenues than can be extracted from the area's middle-class homeowners.

The question is: Does the Constitution empower governments to seize a person's most precious property — a home, a business — and give it to more wealthy interests so that the government can reap, in taxes, ancillary benefits of that wealth? Connecticut's court says yes, which turns the Fifth Amendment from a protection of the individual against overbearing government into a license for government to coerce individuals on behalf of society's strongest interests. Henceforth, what home or business will be safe from grasping governments pursuing their own convenience?

But the Fifth Amendment says, inter alia: "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" (emphasis added). Every state constitution also stipulates takings only for "public use." The framers of the Bill of Rights used language carefully; clearly they intended the adjective "public" to restrict government takings to uses that are directly owned or primarily used by the general public, such as roads, bridges or public buildings.

The Connecticut court, like the courts of six other states, says the "public use" restriction does not really restrict takings at all: It merely means a taking must have some anticipated public benefit, however indirect and derivative, at the end of some chain of causation. Hence New London can evict Wilhelmina Dery from the home in which she has lived since her birth there in 1918.

Fifty years have passed since the court considered whether the "public use" clause allows condemnation for private development. The 1954 case from Washington, D.C., concerned "urban renewal," as such social engineering was confidently called before it became accurately known as "Negro removal." To empower government to condemn slum property (most dwellings had no baths, indoor toilets or central heating; the neighborhood's tuberculosis and syphilis rates were high) the court held that "public use" can mean "public purpose" when the aim is to cure blight harmful to the larger community.



But the Fort Trumbull neighborhood — what remains of it; many residents have been bullied into moving — is middle class. That is the "problem": Residents are not rich enough to pay the sort of taxes that can be extracted from the wealthy interests to whom New London's government wants to give other people's property.

Another step in cutting the Constitution's leash on the awesome power of eminent domain came in 1981. Michigan's Supreme Court allowed the bulldozing of Detroit's Poletown neighborhood — more than 1,000 residences, 600 businesses and many churches — so the property could be given to a more lucrative revenue source, a General Motors plant. In the New London decision, Connecticut's Supreme Court relied on the Michigan decision.

But just 149 days after Connecticut's court ruled, Michigan's Supreme Court unanimously reversed the Poletown decision, denouncing it as "a radical departure from fundamental constitutional principles." In considering whether to take the New London case, the U.S. Supreme Court surely sees, at a minimum, the dangerous emptying of meaning from the Fifth Amendment's "public use" provision.

If the court refuses to review the Connecticut ruling, its silence will effectively ratify state-level judicial vandalism that is draining the phrase "public use" of its power to perform the framers' clearly intended function. That function is to prevent untrammeled government power — in a word, despotism.



E-mail: georgewill@washpost.com

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 00:56
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Taking land to make pills that give erections to old people

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:02
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The power of eminent domain should be removed. There is just too much possibility for its abuse.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:22
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Washoe County, Nevada (where I live) is likely going to utilize eminent domain to secure Ballardi Ranch from developers. The intent is to preserve access to public lands and save what little open space remains inside the Truckee Meadows. The owners have been jerking county officials around for months and they've just about had enough. While I feel the New London officials should be tarred and feathered, I whole-heartedly agree with Washoe County's officials should they choose to take the land.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:25
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Having been to Reno, y'all have all the open space in the world. It's running out in Truckee Meadows?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:26
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DRose,

The use of emminent Domain clause in the Nevada case is an actual use wherein the property is seized/owners get compensation for the public good. A bit different than simply siezing it because it will raise more tax revenues by essentially gifting it to a more favored owner.


Connecticut Supreme Court

Moral Hazard is offline Moral Hazard
King
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Jul 1999
time: 01:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:28
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I know I found it funny that someone from Nevada is worried about open space.

In either case I disagree with both uses of eminent domain. But the Nevada example would definitely fall into the context of the law, if the turned it into Gov land.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:34
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The power of eminent domain is a basic principal of a sovereign government, even a democratic one. BUt it is crucial that it be used only for trully public uses-and never to benefit private interests directly.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
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Jul 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:35
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Damn, I hadn't heard about this. Shows how much attention I give to national/international news versus local news.

-Arrian

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:37
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Put an end to popups!

Connecticutt, NJ and NY are rife with corruption at the state level. Interest groups are so old and entrenched and so much money is floasting around.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Having been to Reno, y'all have all the open space in the world. It's running out in Truckee Meadows?


There's a limit on how high up the side of the mountains in any direction around Reno you can reasonably build. Ballardi Ranch is one of the few open spaces remaining on the valley floor. UNR maintains a research farm over by Hidden Valley, or at least they did. I think they exchanged lands with someone a few months back. Double Diamond Ranch is still in the process of being developed, so that land is going to disappear. The area over by the Mount Rose Highway and the Arrowcreek subdivision is in the process of being developed. Reno continues to absorb land west along I-80 outside the valley floor. In fact, just the other day it was announced that they're in negotiations to annex some land right along the NV-CA border; up till now Reno's border came as close as 600 feet. But past western McCarran Blvd (Reno's ring road), you start leaving the valley proper and start getting into the Sierra Nevada mountains and the river valley carved by the Truckee River. There isn't much in the way of buildable space in there. Additionally, Reno has also climbed up into the North Valleys (beyond north McCarran Blvd) and is starting to gobble up yonder land for developement. So besides Ballardi Ranch, there isn't really any open space left inside the Truckee Meadows proper. There may be opportunites to preserve land in the North Valleys and out by Cold Springs (north along US395).

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I know I found it funny that someone from Nevada is worried about open space.

In either case I disagree with both uses of eminent domain. But the Nevada example would definitely fall into the context of the law, if the turned it into Gov land.


Nevada's topography makes construction difficult going up the sides of the mountains. Nevada is still growing in population; there are small towns in the interior that have seen sudden interest from developers.

My concern is with the Truckee Meadows, not the rest of the state. This valley isn't as desert-like as the rest of the state because of its proximity to the Sierra Nevadas; Hell, we're right at the base. As such, we get more moisture and more green growth than you would find elsewhere in the state. There is precious little of that kind of land in Nevada.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:27 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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They did this in Chicago, when they built the new Kamiski Park (now called U.S. Cellular Field ). IIRC, they also used it when they build the United Center, which replaced the old Chicago Stadium.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The power of eminent domain is a basic principal of a sovereign government, even a democratic one.


Doesn't mean that the government should have that power, or that the constitution gives it.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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Jan 1970
time: 23:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:37 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
They did this in Chicago, when they built the new Kamiski Park (now called U.S. Cellular Field ). IIRC, they also used it when they build the United Center, which replaced the old Chicago Stadium.


At least with the stadium, "real" deals were made and kept. The neighborhood has seen great improvement, and while yes, some people had to move, it was handled well, and the community actually gained.

On the other hand, Comiski Park was a joke... promises were broken, and the community didn't gain a damn thing.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The power of eminent domain is a basic principal of a sovereign government, even a democratic one.


Doesn't mean that the government should have that power, or that the constitution gives it.


Why wouldn't it? If the state is soverign, some individual private landowner's stubborness does not stop projects for the public (state) benefit being moved forward.

It is a power the government needs, and I think the constitution does allow for it.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:40
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Expropriation for public purposes exists in most democracies. I agree that the Nevada example is in accord with the purpose of those provisions .

here in Calgary, there are a large number of people that face expropriation of their homes as the 4 lane main east-west route through the centre of the city is far too small-- again this is what the provision is for- public need

The Conn. example gets a bit blurred if you had a city that saw a need for an industrial park ( what if it was a hospital needed)-- that seems little different from the need for a road-- But what seems to stink here is that they propose to hand the land over to one specific industry so it looks as if the powers of government are being used for the purposes of a specific private industry

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:40 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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quote:
The Connecticut court, like the courts of six other states, says the "public use" restriction does not really restrict takings at all: It merely means a taking must have some anticipated public benefit, however indirect and derivative, at the end of some chain of causation. Hence New London can evict Wilhelmina Dery from the home in which she has lived since her birth there in 1918.


It's sorta the same argument that has been constructed to change the meaning of Interstate Commerce to mean any type of travel or transaction, any part of which could at some point have been taken across a state line in some form or fashion.

Basically, the Republicrats (because we all know both parties support it) are trying to enhance state power through the courts.

self biased is offline self biased
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Yggdrasil.
Nov 1999
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:41 Visit self biased's homepage!
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doesn't this country have its roots in taking land that isn't theirs? why should it stop there?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Why wouldn't it? If the state is soverign, some individual private landowner's stubborness does not stop projects for the public (state) benefit being moved forward.

It is a power the government needs, and I think the constitution does allow for it.


Where did I say that it shouldn't have this power? I just said that that power being part of sovereignty didn't make it good.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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Yes and no, self - while in some ways it's the same thing, it isn't in a strictly legal sense, as far as I can see.

Indians weren't protected by the US Constitution (which doesn't make their treatment right, it just makes the situation different).

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by self biased
doesn't this country have its roots in taking land that isn't theirs? why should it stop there?


Because they're taking land from WHITE PEOPLE!!!

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Where did I say that it shouldn't have this power? I just said that that power being part of sovereignty didn't make it good.


Who ever called it good?

Also, when people say
quote:
Doesn't mean that the government should have that power,
, that sounds suspiciously like "they shouldn't have it". I hope you see issue.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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Well, I for one don't believe government should have the power to take my land without my consent, with or without (their definition of) just compensation.

Now, let ME decide what just compensation means, and we can talk

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Who ever called it good?


quote:
Why wouldn't it? If the state is soverign, some individual private landowner's stubborness does not stop projects for the public (state) benefit being moved forward.

It is a power the government needs, and I think the constitution does allow for it.


I said:

quote:
Where did I say that it shouldn't have this power?


Now, I hope you don't mind the liberty I took in assuming that "it is a power the government needs" meant that you thought it was a power the government should have

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


quote:
Why wouldn't it? If the state is soverign, some individual private landowner's stubborness does not stop projects for the public (state) benefit being moved forward.

It is a power the government needs, and I think the constitution does allow for it.


I said:

quote:
Where did I say that it shouldn't have this power?


Now, I hope you don't mind the liberty I took in assuming that "it is a power the government needs" meant that you thought it was a power the government should have


Except my post you quote came after the post of yours I quoted, a quote in which you asked why the government should have it.

Get your posts straigh, man.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 02:59
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I was answering your post with another of your posts.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 21-09-2004 03:01
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Well, you didn't answer it because that one post was a question on one of your posts, so putitng one of my posts to answer a question about your posts makes no sense at all.

Have you no decency, sir?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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How could city govts ever make improvements without eminent domain? It's the only way to create jobs? Fresno is making a huge industrial park here. Sure a few home owners complain, but with double digit unemployment no one else really cares. Most of the home owners who complain live alone in 4 bedroom houses.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Oh, and George Will is a wacko.

 
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